A listing of potential helpers

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Flack on 18/12/2017 15:17:24:

would it be possible for editors to create a small section of a magazine a "small suppliers forum" where genuine small suppliers could submit samples, photos,finished work for the editor to decide if they complied with the spirit of the forum.

And who decides what a 'small supplier' is?

It all comes back to having to draw a line somewhere, and the only practical line is that those who charge for their work should pay for their advertising.

Sorry.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 16:58:49:

…

It all comes back to having to draw a line somewhere, and the only practical line is that those who charge for their work should pay for their advertising.

.

Eminently logical, Neil

MichaelG.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

How does it work then if you sell something you made in the classifieds?

How does it work if you hyperlink to an eBay account for parts during a build log?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Anyone seen regularly selling items via the classifieds that seem to be more than just having a clear out or selling a model they have made to make way for a new project or similar will be given a talking to and have the adds removed, have done this several times.

Can't see why someone would link to parts they are selling in a build log, as Neil has said we don't mind genuine links to items available from other suppliers not just ones who advertise here or in the mags. regularly delete these sort of posts before you even get to see them on the forum. Posting just to promote an e-bay item you have for sale is also generally removed .

Also worth mentioning that the T&Cs for the site say no soliciting which you have all agreed to by posting here.

Regarding keeping a list of suppliers, as Neil has said it would cost more to run and keep updated than could be raised if charged for. If a free list then who will pay for someones time to add to the list, decide what may go onto the list and then update it regularly to keep details upto date. Another 50p on your issue of ME or MEW OK and then it would only be fair to make available to subscribers.

J

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Hello to John Flack, let harmony reign. We're all just expressing opinions, which is what we can do in a democracy. Who was it who said' I vehemently disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it', or words to that effect ?

I like the idea you put forward John, for a 'small suppliers' corner in the mag. It would do what I'm trying to do, that is, make it easier for those seeking help to find those who can help them.

All the best to you,

Ken.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

This is an interesting thread. I am fascinated by the comparisons between a full blown commercial business existing to make a profit and provide employment and the fellow in his shed doing the occasional job to help people out below commercial rates. In fact I don't see any obvious commercial advertiser on this site offering such a service so it's hardly in competition? Irrespective of the accepted definitions of commercial activity it's a bit like comparing Microsoft with your window cleaner!

I have the upmost respect for Jason B, he was instrumental in offering me assistance on another forum I joined and is a very skilled fellow producing some fantastic work. He also offers many practical suggestions and solutions to many contributors on this forum. I can't really agree with the moderator policy he states in this thread though, particularly with a current classified that has obviously not been challenged. I have no problem at all with this advert as I would have no problem with an "assistance thread" should it be started. I do think the moderation policy could do with some revision in this area though. I am sure it is possible in the forum software to make a section where every post has to be pre approved by a moderator before it is published to keep a control of the content and I can't see it attracting hundreds of posts so it's not likely to be an onerous duty?

Paul.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Paul, suggest you look through a few mags and see the small adverts in the back for the likes of John Dunn Eng and the the other one I mentioned earlier in the thread in particular that I could not spot at the time, or even the Lynx adverts! These all offer the type of service that Ken does but they pay for their adverts.

Also as an example Fizzy who has been a lot more active on the forum and offers advice started to turn his hobby and skills at boiler making into a money making venture, you can now find his advert in the mag offering ready made boilers and tanks and will also make on commission. Would it be fair to have let him promote his services for free in the mag when we have several well established boiler makers paying to advertise.

Please also remember that my fellow Moderators Neil and Diane only get paid a set amount and can only give so much of their time for that, I don't get anything.

As I posted earlier in this thread a help and assistance was set up by Neil and hardly gets any use for its intended purpose, most posts are just people not posting in the right place and asking for advice.

J

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 18/12/2017 21:04:23:

This is an interesting thread. I am fascinated by the comparisons between a full blown commercial business existing to make a profit and provide employment and the fellow in his shed doing the occasional job to help people out below commercial rates. In fact I don't see any obvious commercial advertiser on this site offering such a service so it's hardly in competition? Irrespective of the accepted definitions of commercial activity it's a bit like comparing Microsoft with your window cleaner!

We do have advertisers in ME and MEW who offer machining services for such things.

Neil

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Jason has just mentioned the 'Help and Assistance' thread set up by Neil three months ago. Interestingly, if you read the associated 'sticky' spelling out the rules for its use it states :-

Quote – '(This thread is) a more formal place to offer or request assistance in the form of surplus tools, materials, advice, loans of use of specialist machinery or tooling, or even a practical helping hand.

The only rule is that this MUST NOT BE FOR FINANCIAL GAIN!

• Private sales of good and services should be made using the free classifieds.
• Commercial sales must be through proper adverts' – end of quote

Note that line 'PRIVATE SALES OF GOODS AND SERVICES SHOULD BE MADE USING THE FREE CLASSIFIEDS'

ISN'T THIS WHERE I CAME IN ? I'm a private individual, what Paul Kemp called 'the fellow in his shed', not a commercial enterprise. I have a trading name as a hangover from my days as an engineering consultant, and Neil asked me, a couple of years ago, to attach it to my user name, because I charged the occasional user of my services. At that time my use of the free classifieds was not questioned, and my level of activity has not changed. The quote above confirms that the correct way for a private individual to sell (not give freely, but sell) his services, is through the free classifieds, so why am I now being denied this facility ?

The above rules were published just three months ago, yet Neil and Paul , for whom I have the greatest respect, seem intent upon ignoring them and instead enforcing a most inflexible and contrary attitude, and frankly, I can't understand why.

Come on chaps, we should all be trying to row in the same direction, making the hobby more enjoyable and fulfilling for all.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 18/12/2017 20:32:15:

Who was it who said' I vehemently disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it', or words to that effect ?

I think is was Benito Mussolini. No wait, it was Chairman Mao Tse Tung……..

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Jason b………I have taken the trouble to follow theBIG PRINT of the moderator/editor and his additional post that follows it.

Some time in 2017 a person who was clearly running a commercial business (He actually said so) asked for help from an electrical specialist, in order to keep his or someone's business running, for which he offered payment.

Do you consider this is within the rules of the forum to which you allude

My view is that some form of financial gain was involved, thus contradicting the moderators own rules

Jf

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The original poster was not promoting his own business so OK. Ken has also asked questions and offered to pay for items and these requests have not been deleted. How many times do people on here ask for a source of tools or materials? It is assumed they will pay for them, if they were all deleted it would be a quiet forum.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Ken,

I admire your persistence. My personal opinion is split, and I understand both views.

Now a days, a certain amount of skills are being lost for a whole bunch of reasons. So, if a list was made available as you suggest, of paid and free UK providers of service 'skill related', based on certain criteria, that would be great.

I recall that a Model Railway publication used to have a printed 'Resources' section, which included paid and unpaid advertising.

So, I wonder if both you and MTM may wish to consider a compromise, if it is technically possible?.

Lets say for example MTM prepared a link to such a 'Skills resources' page. On that page, if you want your name to be included as a UK based provider of a skill/service against a remuneration, you pay an annual nominal fee of say £50.00 for example (provided MTM agrees to a figure, and you meet the criteria of advertising on such a list – eg. v.small, u.k. based etc.), then that equates to just over £4.16 per month. In turn, your name and service could be high lighted in bold, in a box etc., and the free service providers are just named in a 'normal' list font with more limited details?… I am aware that some people want a paid service and they are embarrassed to ask 'is there/or what is the charge for a service?'. This way, it opens a door for such people to ask the service provider for what they will charge.

With respect, it is outside the remit of Neil or Jason to make advertising decisions. Neil can only put forward your suggestions to the board, as he did earlier. MTM is a business, and it is their policy decision which is being implemented here.

What I am saying is just a suggestion/thought for both sides to consider.

If the idea is rejected by either party, that is the way it is. As mentioned earlier, the likes of Fizzy, the late JS and others have successfully gained small amounts of work from forum members by regularly posting on the forum about 'how they use their skills'. At the end of the day, this forum is the modern day communicator of 'word of mouth'. This, in my opinion is a great form of advertising too. Perhaps this could be something that Ken could consider?. Then if someone wants Kens service, they could always PM him?

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Katana, Neil posted earlier that he had put up a suggestion of a paid for directory to management but it was decided that income would not cover running costs. If free non financial entries were included as you suggest then running costs would be even higher for no more income. So your suggestion could be dead on its feet before up and running. Other non commercially run forums such as MECH have free trade space as Dave suggested earlier and I think HMEM now has. Cheap option to list your services which Ken etc could use. The PM system also works but does Meens Ken etc would have to go looking for people wanting their services rather than waiting for customers to come to them but you can’t have something for nothing. J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Ken,

I can't help thinking that this thread has brought you some significant publicity, at no cost.

It would be interesting to know the effect on the number of serious enquires you have received.

MichaelG.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Jason,

I understand, and I am avoiding the idea of a 'full paid for directory' which was the traditional approach.

What I am suggesting, provided all parties agree, is 'a simple list', which can be grown – by the advertising department, as a part of their responsibility, as the demand grows. For example, there are times when you read….

'I am Fred. I need help with xyz. Anyone in my area who can help/guide me?'…. to which the responses range from:

– I live near you. I can help with xyz, or

– there is this club in your area, joint it, etc…

– there is a Men in Shed group near you

So, perhaps the list could include club entries for free etc.?

I am aware that the original proposal by Neil to management was rejected. The concept/idea was a little different then to what Is being suggested now perhaps. It is still open to abuse by certain people, but that can be controlled. Again, no sides being taken here. Just a possible solution, which can still be rejected

With reference to PM, If Kens work is good, and he shows what he does, regularly, I doubt that he will have to go to people wanting his service. I would guess/hope they would come to him automatically after seeing his posts..

As Michael G just said, I too think that this thread has/will bring some significant publicity for Ken.

This forum is a powerful world platform. The management at MTM recognize this. The more visitors this site gets, the better it is for all concerned. In this context, making the list could be regarded as an investment, inviting new members, rather than an expense.

Ketan at ARC.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 19/12/2017 23:49:26:

Jason has just mentioned the 'Help and Assistance' thread set up by Neil three months ago. Interestingly, if you read the associated 'sticky' spelling out the rules for its use it states :-

Quote – '(This thread is) a more formal place to offer or request assistance in the form of surplus tools, materials, advice, loans of use of specialist machinery or tooling, or even a practical helping hand.

The only rule is that this MUST NOT BE FOR FINANCIAL GAIN!

• Private sales of good and services should be made using the free classifieds.
• Commercial sales must be through proper adverts' – end of quote

Note that line 'PRIVATE SALES OF GOODS AND SERVICES SHOULD BE MADE USING THE FREE CLASSIFIEDS'

ISN'T THIS WHERE I CAME IN ? I'm a private individual, what Paul Kemp called 'the fellow in his shed', not a commercial enterprise. I have a trading name as a hangover from my days as an engineering consultant, and Neil asked me, a couple of years ago, to attach it to my user name, because I charged the occasional user of my services. At that time my use of the free classifieds was not questioned, and my level of activity has not changed. The quote above confirms that the correct way for a private individual to sell (not give freely, but sell) his services, is through the free classifieds, so why am I now being denied this facility ?

The above rules were published just three months ago, yet Neil and Paul , for whom I have the greatest respect, seem intent upon ignoring them and instead enforcing a most inflexible and contrary attitude, and frankly, I can't understand why.

Come on chaps, we should all be trying to row in the same direction, making the hobby more enjoyable and fulfilling for all.

By your own admission you charge for your services, so there is a financial gain.

I struggle to understand which bit of this you do not understand.

I belong to many forums. In all of them, I sign up for the terms and conditions.

If I don't like the terms and conditions, that's my problem, the T&C are what they are.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/12/2017 11:34:04:

Ken,

I can't help thinking that this thread has brought you some significant publicity, at no cost.

It would be interesting to know the effect on the number of serious enquires you have received.

MichaelG.

Well Michael, it's a two sided coin, there won't be any from me.

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Certainly Michael, I suspect you are not alone in wondering how I'm coping with the flood of work; well, let me put things in perspective.

I have had one enquiry, which has resulted in an order for some simple U/C legs, total value less than £100, and another enquiry from a gentleman who makes spares for a well-known brand of sports car, and who wonders if I might be able to help with some machining. That looks unlikely.

As for my current workload, a repeat customer, first met with several years ago, has asked me to machine a regulator casting. This enquiry had nothing to do with exposure in the thread, and again is relatively low-cost. He also asked me to make some small parts, in June.

The previous job was for a modeller inTaiwan, enquiry in February, and completion in July after working in small stages to suit his budget.

That's it. As you must agree, not exactly a flood of enquiries, nor money coming in. I trust the Moderators will also take note and perhaps revise their assumptions about my 'large commercial undertaking'. My shed is 10' x 12' and into it I have squeezed my ML7, Centec mill, workbench 5' x 3', and a tool cabinet 4' x 2'. I also have a bench grinder, small pillar drill (on the workbench), and material racks on the wall. Quite an empire isn't it ?

I'm awaiting a response to my highlighting the glaring contradiction between the rules of Neil's 'help' thread, relating to use of free classifieds, and the way my use of them has been denied

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Jason b……it's not clear to me if your post, that follows mine is an answer to me or another post?

Assuming it was me…….would not the forum member who accepted the job, and presumably was paid for said work be a person who made a financial gain??????????

I am simply seeking clarification as to where the line is drawn. Jf

Edited By John Flack on 20/12/2017 13:11:18

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Dave standing…….most coins have two sides (If you exclude the edge) ….I understand the intended comment😈😈😈

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John yes my reply was to you and that is why I said that the gain of the person who responded would be no different to the gain of and supplier that may be suggested by members. The respondent is not Soliciting for work which as I have said is against T&Cs.

Ken, I don't see that workshop size comes into it, I make a comfortable living out of a double garage, it's no problem to make a £20k bit of furniture in there!

Diane, Neil and myself are all reasonable people and to some extent the decision is upto our disgression. We won't take blatant free touting for business but don't go reading every PM that is sent (which we can) that is why you often see the reply "PM sent" or "send me a PM I may be able to help" that is left undeleted. Same with the classifieds if I see something that looks commercial I delete it or if a regular offender will discuss with Diane and Neil and we will act. as you don't visit the forum as much as I do you no doubt don't get to see the adds before they get deleted. Yes we may miss some but can't police them all and if nobody flags them up to us as trade they may slip through the net. I won't go into the number of 1st posts that get deleted before any of you see themas they are blatant commercial ones.

J

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 20/12/2017 12:52:45:

I'm awaiting a response to my highlighting the glaring contradiction between the rules of Neil's 'help' thread, relating to use of free classifieds, and the way my use of them has been denied

Unfortunately you cannot multiquote on this forum, but on the previous page Neil replied thus:

'It all comes back to having to draw a line somewhere, and the only practical line is that those who charge for their work should pay for their advertising.

Sorry

Neil'

I mentioned above that I belong to a number of forums, and one thing that is evident is that the tolerance level by the moderation team varies wildly from forum to forum.

I belong to some whereby there is a pretty much zero tolerance attitude.

This forum is not like that, and I think Neil and Jason have gone out of their way to explain the situation to you, and been more than reasonable.

It is a shame that you cannot just accept that, and you may like to consider that there is probably a fine line where you can push this too far.

The forum rules are the rules, and if you do not like them, you do have a range of options open to you. I believe there has been mentioned on previous pages other forums that may do for you what you wish.

I have seen all to many 'I want' posts on other forums in the past, and they inevitably have a sorry outcome.

Good luck with your venture.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Jason b……. Still not clear on the policy……..are you saying that a forum member who emails another to do paid work is NOT advertising his availability for GAIN. The legal profession may just have an alternative view on that. Jf

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