A listing of potential helpers

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

About a year and a half ago I was told I could no longer run my little ads (offering general help with machining, fitting, etc) in the 'Classifieds' sections on this website as it might upset some of the regular advertisers who offer specialised services and products, and pay for larger adverts in the magazine, something I cannot afford. Such advertising is an important source of income for the publishers and keeps the mag. solvent.

The background to this was that a very few unscrupulous manufacturers, including a boilermaking outfit, were using the website 'Classifieds' to avoid paying proper advertising fees, and thus gaining an unfair advantage over their competitors.

Fair enough, I could see that THAT needed to be stamped on, but as I repeatedly pointed out in emails to Neil, I am not a manufacturer, just an OAP supplementing pension income by offering any kind of workshop help to folks who need it, and for which I make a modest charge.

I suggested it might be useful for readers to have a small directory of people such as myself, offering any sort of help from their workshops, to those perhaps less well equipped or without sufficient time or certain skills. I envisaged that some would charge, whilst others might not; in either case it would be an easily accessible source of help to those in need of it.

It was all to no avail. Neil did take my suggestion to the Board, but it was rejected, which saddened me as not only did it cut me off from folk I might have helped (to our mutual advantage), but I felt an opportunity to introduce a genuinely valuable resource was being missed.

Perhaps I am mistaken. I should like to know what others think, both those who could offer help, on whatever basis, and those who have felt the need for it but didn't know where to turn. Is there a concensus of any sort ? Please post your opinions,

Thanks,

Ken

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Making it easier to find assistance when you need it

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

I'm all for it, could offer use of fully equipt workshop facilities and workshop machinery in exchange for some guidance / training

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Most pleas on the forum are greeted freely with offers of help – it being mostly in the form of written assistance and some offers of practical help – the emphasis on the 'free' bit. It is partly what the forum is about.

The best suggestion I can offer is for you to use the PM system, should you think a particular poster might be likely to take up your offer. Of course, taking care not to be a nuisance to members.

Some may ignore you, some may politely decline and a minority might complain loudly. Depends on if you only contactvthe once, or more often! Explaining your situation to each might be good, too.

Cup Alloys, Arceuro and amadeal(?sp) all certainly help people on the forum, while not directly pushing their wares. A service, rather than marketing goods, is a little different. Helping someone to achieve a result would be viewed differently to offering ready-made tool holders at below market value, per eg.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi Ken

Whilst I can sympathise with you if you are offering help for which you make a charge you are offering a "service" which is charged for, hence could be described as a business so subject to all that entails.

Emgee

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neil suggested a list of people willing to offer help over two years ago, I'll let people read it to see how poor the response was. Please note his Bold type.

I can't find the advert now but there is a chap how has a small advert in the mag and states he is a retired engineer, if he can pay for an add it is unfair to him if others don't. Still you can claim back the cost of the advert when you do your tax return showing earnings from these little jobs!

Neil and Myself do delete adverts in the classifieds and contact the sellers if we think the system is being abused and also act on ones pointed out by other members, I'm not aware of the boiler one mentioned above.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

For clarity, the situation is that we have free classified advertising in the magazines and website for non-trade sales, wanted and swaps.

We have a whole range of 'paid for' alternatives for traders, and the cheapest are not hugely expensive.

I suggested a 'low cost' directory and the response was that the sort of costs suggested would barely cover eth costs and complications of setting up a system and invoicing for it.

Advertising is what pays for the existence of this website and while a 'free' directory would benefit members, it would also upset our those advertisers who pay for space.

I am personally in the same position as Ken – I would like to use small ads here or in the magazines to plug my small selection of books, but the returns from them are too modest to justify it.

There are other places to advertise such services at modest cost such as homeworkshop.org.uk JS's old website which is still running.

I should add, we don't mind people mentioning non-advertisers but won't allow shameless promotion.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Oh my the world is getting complicated!

A member has been in touch to say given the import cVAt & duty issue, shouldn't I 'stomp' on income tax evasion?

Good news for once. It used to be that anything you generated above your costs (e.g. materials, transport) from doing 'odd jobs' was taxable and needed to be declared.

From 6 April 2017 a new 'trading allowance' was introduced that means you don't have to pay tax on or even declare up to £1,000 of trading income.

Bear in mind this is on 'income' not profit, but I am sure it covers the sort of minor trading Ken is describing.

If your income from trading goes above £1,000, you can deduct £1,000 from your receipts.

Neil

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Anyone wishing to advertise their engineering services for hire can do so for free on Gum Tree. That might even target your local audience better than an international website like this one where there are always plenty of people looking for help but they are spread all over the place and probably not close enough to you to make use of your services. I suppose you'd have to beware of the usual internet scammers and the like, or those just interesting in coming around to scope out your workshop.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Ken

You might consider advertising your service on Model Engineering Clearing House. As far as I know their service is free. How much response there is to any of the adverts, I know not but it might be worth a try.

http://modeleng.proboards.com/board/23/trade

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Thanks to those who have taken the trouble to reply to my question ; 'Would it be advantageous to readers to have a small directory of those able and willing to help with projects, on whatever basis ?'

Apart from the first enthusiastic response, from Anthony Powell, the others seem to have lost sight of the actual question and just become somewhat self-righteous about my personal arrangement of offering help in return for payment.

I feel obliged to defend myself here. There is nothing dishonourable about charging for my time and any skills brought to bear, and those who contact me on that basis are free to reject my quotations, with no hard feelings, though not many do, I'm pleased to say. Not that I do a great deal of business, in fact you can count my 2017 clients on the fingers of one hand, and some of those are quite small jobs.

I do also offer a design and make service for odd items which are not commercially available, and have shown the progress of some through site blogs for the interest and perhaps information of readers. I have given free help on many occasions, and post some of my ideas on this site for the benefit of all. So please don't attempt to take the moral high ground with me, it simply displays a somewhat narrow-minded view. Much better to simply answer the question regarding a directory of helpers, in the interests of possibly improving services available to all readers.

Regards to you all,

Ken

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi Ken,

I for one would possibly use your services if I needed such help and dependant on where you were located and how much you would charge. However what you are actualy asking for, boils down to free advertising, it really is that basic, and so the organisers of the website and magazine are completely right to decline your suggestion.

Maybe a better solution would be to follow the advice of contacting people who are asking for advice or a particular service and state that you feel that you could assist or produce x, y or z at an estimated cost of £whatever.

Please don't be offended by my posting, I am sure you are a very capable engineer, but the business of running teh mag and website is a very different matter.

Best wishes for 2018,

Ian

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi again Ken,

I thought what would I do if I had your skills and abilities and wanted to earn just a little extra without working full time. I think I would put together a concise covering letter and then go and visit local engineering companies offering to look at customers requesting small runs or one off jobs that were impractical for the engineering company to do. I would also look at local garages of the none franchised type and let them know what I could do for them, I would also consider checking out cycle shops etc and offer some customer bespoked work etc. I would follow it up every few months and maybe take examples of smaller items that have been made/repaired/modified.

Best wishes and good luck,

Ian

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Offering help in return for payment is the foundation block of commercial enterprise.

Trying to see that differently to what it is, is a total delusion.

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 12/12/2017 10:42:30:

Fair enough, I could see that THAT needed to be stamped on, but as I repeatedly pointed out in emails to Neil, I am not a manufacturer, just an OAP supplementing pension income by offering any kind of workshop help to folks who need it, and for which I make a modest charge.

I suggested it might be useful for readers to have a small directory of people such as myself, offering any sort of help from their workshops, to those perhaps less well equipped or without sufficient time or certain skills. I envisaged that some would charge, whilst others might not; in either case it would be an easily accessible source of help to those in need of it.

It's actually incredibly easy to make £money from this hobby. I've been doing it for 10yrs+.

If you genuinely need to supplement a pension, have the right equipment, the ability & most importantly the TIME, then I can point you in a direction where you can easily make £6-£8ph. It won't make you rich but it will subsidise the hobby.

You will also be helping people & it's a MASSIVE ego boost when you see what you made being put to good use.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

may I express an alternative opinion to mr Charity who states that "it's incredibly east to make money from a hobby I've been doing it for years" . It is also easy to snatch hand bags, stab people, and set up computer scams,or drive without tax and insurance. The wider Society we live in sets boundaries to our activities which determine what is acceptable/not acceptable

Once you accept payment or reward you become a professional and the world of your activity radically alters. You are required to inform your local council, home insurer, motor insurer, utility supplier THEY will decide if you will pay domestic or business tariffs. You may also have to comply with h & s and fire regs. You may no longer qualify for domestic waste collection and may have to use a regulated waste disposal specialist.

The concept that you are only a "little bit professional from time to time" may not be the official viewpoint on your activities.

I would suggest for you and your families benefit a product liability insurance would be wise.

As the moderator says it is complicated. You can stick as many fingers that you have to OFFICIALDOM , it's usually fine and dandy until you are accused of dishonesty and cheating those who comply with the rules and are required to suffer whatever penalties are imposed.

There is always a choice………

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

It's OK, really. Everything gets channelled through my Cayman Islands company.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I'v been doing jobs for years, if the person wanting work done asks how much, I suggest $NZ 10 and you supply the materials, when the jobs done the "customer" usually comes up with $NZ50 or so. 90% of the stuff I do would be turned away from a commercal shop, or at least be too expensive to even contenplate. Apart from the small jobs, usually for restoration of tractors and ag machinery, and in the past, parts for Willeys Jeeps, I did have regular work for a local machinery manufacturer, making parts.

Ian S C

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Well, that opened a can of worms, didn't it ? I have to repeat that some folk have lost sight of the actual question in the fog of their own righteous indignation. I think John Flack went a little too far in associating my position with handbag snatching, stabbing, and driving without tax and insurance. I live within the law, observe speed limits, try to be courteous to all, and helpful when appropriate. I'm just glad I don't inhabit HIS hidebound world, where individuality, eccentricity, innovation and budding entrepreneurship must be stifled at birth by red tape. Chacun a son gout.

My final word is that if the directory came into existence it would Not be like advertising, which thrusts itself into your face, whether you are interested or not. It would be accessed only by those actively seeking help of some kind, and if I were listed therein as charging for my services, alongside others offering theirs for nothing, well, the consumer could choose freely from those offering that which was needed. I'd be happy to take my chances on that basis.

I wish all readers a very merry Christmas, and a happy and prosperous New Year,

Regards,

Ken

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Ken,

It sounds a great idea to me. Having access to other equipment like oxy acetylene/ propane, bending rolls or somebody who can weld would be useful to me – for reasonable expenses of course.

Phil H

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Ken – You asked for opinions – here's mine:

I would have NO objection seeing your ad in the classifieds given the small scale of your ops. It seems wholly appropriate that any one on this forum looking for the sort of help that you offer should find it in the classifieds – end of!.

Rik

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The problem is deciding what is a small op and may be allowed and what is not. Looking through Ken's photo albums which are virtually all "jobs" I would say some of those would be classed as a bit more than a few quid for a pint or two unless that is what you may charge to make something like the saddle tank in his avitar and he even includes a business name in his user name!

The answer to Ken's particular situation was covered early on in this thread, I've even used it to point people in his direction in the past.

J

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Jason, I thought I'd said my last, but you prompt me to reply. I fail to see what the 'size' of a job has to do with anything. I actually do very few jobs, and a good proportionof them are too small or ordinary to warrant a place in my albums. Therefore it is natural that my albums give a skewed picture of the scale of my activities.

What you failed to note was the long timescale over which those albums are spread, nor did you note that a good many are unique subjects for which no commercial supplier exists. I also have to point out that my business name is included in my user name because I was specifically asked to add it by a moderator quite some time ago.

Thanks for any referrals BTW,

Regards,

Ken

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Thanks to Phil H1 and Rik Shaw; it's true what they say about great minds, isn't it ?

Cheers,

Ken

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Mr King…… Exactly where did I associate you with my comments which were directed at a specific statement made by Mr Charity???????

We do in fact share the same world (though the same planet is questionable)!!!!!!!!!!

When you use the expression "Fog of righteous indignation " should I interpret this as the will of the electoral majority

Who create the Parliaments WE rely on rely on to establish some form of order in civilised society???????

On a more harmonious note, would it be possible for editors to create a small section of a magazine a "small suppliers forum" where genuine small suppliers could submit samples, photos,finished work for the editor to decide if they complied with the spirit of the forum. If the photos were permitted to have a contact point in an agreed size print an occasional montage of such photos might become a feature of the magazine with whatever use readers may wish. The editors decisions would govern all matters. (No change there then)🕵

Peace and love to all at this time of year……..jf

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