A fishy story

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Should I be using fishing line?

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Gentlemen,

I would welcome comment about using fishing line for clocks.

As some of you would remember, three years ago I finished building John Stevens’ skeleton clock and set it in motion. As an eight-day clock and being wound regularly, it has been running without a hiccough.

As you can see from my picture, I used braided fishing line to transfer the torque from the barrel to the fusee. The line is rated at 80lb, and my rough measurements suggest that the spring exerts a pull in the thread of about 10 to 12kg (22-26lb).

About a week ago, the clock stopped. The fishing line had failed while there was at least 80% of the spring’s energy remaining, ie. at almost the highest tension. Although I was out at the time, it must have caused quite a racket, probably scaring the life out of our dog.

While the clock has sat in the shade behind vertical blinds, I suspect that some UV has been getting to the fishing line. There are also limitation to thread/line diameter, and the method of attaching it to the barrel and the fusee.

Also, I have rather limited workshop facilities, so any serious modifications would be difficult if not impossible.

Before I buy more/better line, what are your thoughts?

With regards,

Sam

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I suspect the line is not absolutely garuanteed to be 80 lb and if it breaks for a fisherman he just tells his friends "It was so big it broke my 80lb line so it must have been at least 100lbs"

There may be different qualities as I bought a strimmer last year and the supplied line, just seems like thick fihsing line, broke every minute until it was all used up. I bought some from my local farmers' shop and I only have to feed more line a couple of times an hour,

I'd use stainless wire for appearance or brass plated steel as used to be used for picture hanging.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hi Bazyle,

Thanks for your very prompt reply, and I appreciated your thoughts about the guaranteed breaking strength. I'd expected that with a 3 to 4 times `safety' factor, it was adequate. I certainly enjoyed your comment about the size of the fish.

I have been lucky enough to find a very helpful clock maker in Melbourne, who was generous enough to give me some multi-strand steel wire. Unfortunately, it is too thick for the grooves in the fusee, and I haven't yet figured out a simple way of anchoring the ends of wire. The existing method I've used, allows me to thread looped ends through holes in the barrel and the fusee.

The local fishing shop have invited me to come in and examine other types of line.

As I've mentioned, I suspect that UV has had something to do with it. In the plastics industry, the best and cheapest method of providing UV protection is micro-fined carbon black, so I'm wondering if black fishing line is available. I'll ask the local supplier shortly.

Thanks again,

Sam

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Braid is very strong, if you can connect it correctly.

Lathe belting is also amazingly strong and goes down to 2-3 mm (the red stuff)

you can hang an entire human from lathe belting(tested it) plus it has good shock and wear capabilities

Mono weakens with exposure to light, it gets brittle

Edited By Ady1 on 03/07/2014 00:37:04

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Knew I'd find it eventually

Dyneema

It can be purchased as fishing line

Totally useless, it's too light and catches more seabirds than fish because it floats in the air like gossamer

Incredibly strong though, almost as good as spider silk

Edited By Ady1 on 03/07/2014 01:03:50

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

 

Hi Sam,

Try your local Tackle World or BCF store and look for multi strand stainless trace wire and you can get little crimps to form the loops you need .

The stuff in the photo is from memory 80- 100 LB breaking strain PVC coated and measures .65 mm diameter but I think you can get just bare wire also.

Have a look at those stores online and see if they sell what you want .

Braid is very strong for the diameter and has no stretch but does not like abrasion of any kind .

Ian

Edited By XD 351 on 03/07/2014 02:34:55

Edited By XD 351 on 03/07/2014 02:36:45

[“Bill Hancox”Participant @billhancox]

Sam

If you opt to use any type of braided material in this application you should ensure that it is preloaded before use by simply hanging a weight from it for a couple of days roughly equivalent to the tensile force that it will be subjected to in use. I have several fishing reels loaded with various braided and filament lines. All are UV resistant. this day and age you would probably have to look hard to find any fishing line that was not UV coated.

Bill

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your messages, they are greatly appreciated. I’d like to carry out a couple of tests before going any further.

Having said that, I’ve just arrived back from an interesting session with Tackle World in Cranbourne (Oz). They gave me a piece of fishing line to try which has a 90lb rating. I can only describe it as a multi-stranded steel core with a (tough to cut) reddish brown plastic coating. Its diameter fits in the fusee grooves perfectly.

Without too much thought when I was putting the finishing touches to the clock (over three years ago), I terminated both ends of the original (yellow) braided fishing line with (granny-knot) loops. These were threaded through holes in the barrel and the fusee. To prevent them pulling out, I inserted a tiny grooved peg into each loop. This worked well especially considering the limited space available. But that's what clocks can be like.

Knotting steel wire is not going to be so easy, and anchoring is where I need to concentrate.

Regards,

Sam

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

How about a copper ferrule like this **LINK** loop the wire back through it and you can place a small peg in it.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Sam

Greetings from a fellow Victorian.

I think You have been attacked by the creep gremlin, all materials creep plastics being some of the worst. The load under which a material creeps under compression or tension can be a lot lower than its ultimate breaking strain as tested when imposed by a short term load.

You can also get plastic coated very fine gauge stainless steel cables (trace) from a fishing shop, This may be a better alternative for your clock. In this case the plastic is only protection. Stainless steel creeps very little.

Here is a link that describes the process **LINK**

Or some images of the effect. You can click on them to follow them back to the source. **LINK**

This is one of many links I found Can you work with 1mm wire?
**LINK**

Or try the complete angler they specialise in fly fishing and light tackle.

Regards
John

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Meadows and Passmore sell fusee clock lines and will post to anywhere. They have various types with a range of safe working loads. **LINK**

No connection, just a satisfied customer.

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 03/07/2014 09:01:33

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Try archery shops for string material, angel dyneema, BCY etc Very strong and you can use various numbers of strands to fit the grooves of the fusee. From memory one strand of BCY ( can,t remember the number) has a breaking strain of 100lb and is very thin, is waxed and I would think it would work very well for your needs as it is not affected by light, humidity etc

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Try archery shops for string material, angel dyneema, BCY etc Very strong and you can use various numbers of strands to fit the grooves of the fusee. From memory one strand of BCY ( can,t remember the number) has a breaking strain of 100lb and is very thin, is waxed and I would think it would work very well for your needs as it is not affected by light, humidity etc

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Howard Winwood on 03/07/2014 09:29:59:

Try archery shops for string material, angel dyneema, BCY etc Very strong and you can use various numbers of strands to fit the grooves of the fusee. From memory one strand of BCY ( can,t remember the number) has a breaking strain of 100lb and is very thin, is waxed and I would think it would work very well for your needs as it is not affected by light, humidity etc

The normal safety factor between SWL and minimum breaking strain for this application is 5. So 100 lb breaking strain would be marginal. Best to buy the right stuff.

Russell.

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Dyneema is a highly oriented Polyethylene. Though incredibly strong, it will still be subject to creep in this type of application. Though it may be UV stabilised, I would expect it to still suffer from UV attack in the long term if exposed.

At room temperature, such polymers are not all that far away from their melting point – so creep is always an issue to consider.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Sam

I have sent you a pm

All the best

Norman

[Tim Rowe 1Participant @timrowe1]

Go to the sister forum modelflying.co.uk and find out about control line wire. It would seem to have the properties you are looking for. Stainless steel braid. 100% UV proof, flexible and strong for obvious safety reasons.

[SteveWParticipant @stevew54046]

Some control line wire is brass plated and quite easy to soft solder a termination. If you found a local club I'm sure they would donate a bit for you to look at. Only issue may be the diameter it would need to be wrapped round and how it would stand up to continual flexing over a period of time.

Although brass coated, in the rugged outdoor conditions its used in it does rust with time. Also in storage. So the coating is only a gnats' thick.

SteveW

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

Sam et al, You need to consider the use to which you are subjecting the braided fishing line. I spoke to a friend of mane this morning who actually manufactures braided fishing line, as opposed to simply selling the stuff. When I told him the use to which it was being subjected he laughed, oh how he laughed. His view was that the 80lb rating of the line was somewhat irrelevant. You are subjecting the line to a constant loading of some 22-26lbf.

The line is designed to withstand a occasional peak load of 80lbf. Your thoughts on a safety factor of 3 or 4 would only apply for occasional loads rather than a 3 year consistent loading and constant flexing as the line rolls on and off of the clock components……….I can only tell the time with a clock and so the component names are a mystery to me, please forgive my ignorance on this.

In his opinion you are lucky that the line lasted for 3 years. If there is no purpose made line available then he suggests stainless steel or brass braided lines of suitable strength. Many others I note have made similar suggestions. HTH.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 03/07/2014 09:40:53:

Posted by Howard Winwood on 03/07/2014 09:29:59:

Try archery shops for string material, angel dyneema, BCY etc Very strong and you can use various numbers of strands to fit the grooves of the fusee. From memory one strand of BCY ( can,t remember the number) has a breaking strain of 100lb and is very thin, is waxed and I would think it would work very well for your needs as it is not affected by light, humidity etc

The normal safety factor between SWL and minimum breaking strain for this application is 5. So 100 lb breaking strain would be marginal. Best to buy the right stuff.

Russell.

Hi Russell – the 100ib breaking strain quoted was for ONE strand. One would normally use multiple stands to get to the thickness of the fishing line used above.

as for creep, if initially stretched to 100 lb future stretch is negligible. it is important that bow strings do not stretch after an initial shoot in period, even more so with compound bows.

As for UV stabilisation, again, not really relevant as UVB stability is excellent or they would not be used for bow strings.

I still am of the opinion that it is a far better option than fishing line.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I know nothing whatever about clocks, but I am an angler and used to be technical editor of the weekly Angling Times. I found that all nylon-based lines, whether mono or braided, degrade in light and should be kept in the dark except when fishing. My recommendation would be to try braided Dacron, which does not stretch and, to the best of my knowledge, does not degrade in light. I'd be interested to hear MadMike's pal's thoughts on this, as my experience is somewhat dated.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

My thoughts would be why not use the nylon or steel wire that is sold for clock making rather than mess about with unknown fishing line?

J

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All

I guess clock making is an art as well as a science. It is also a tradition that does not accept change easily. "Traditional" gut or natural fibre may be preferable for historical reasons, however I wonder if Harrison would have used gut or fibre had fine steel or stainless steel cable been available in his time. I suspect not, he was more interested in the engineering and saving the lives of so many sailors and the prize from the monarch.

One factor that should be considered when selecting a cable of any type that runs over a pulley or in this case a fuse is the ratio between the diameter of the cable and the pulley.

This link appears to be a good starting point although it only covers wires down to 1/16 of an inch it suggests that a 7 x 19 cable needs a pulley diameter that is between 18 and 24 times bigger than the wire diameter. A pulley 12.6mm to 16.8mm diameter if using a .7mm (Point 7mm) cable

**LINK**

——————————–

I found this company in the UK that appears to specialise in small diameter high specification cables. I downloaded the product PDF. Maybe they can provide quality advice re the pulley diameters for very fine cable.

**LINK**

If the clock has a smaller diameter fusee at the small end I am guessing that a cable used in a clock represents a very light duty flexing cycle compared to say a hoist, A clock cycle is over many days for one cycle, this may mean that a smaller diameter can be used and still have a very long life.

Regards
John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The cables used for cable-digital readouts would seem to be a good place to look as well.

Neil

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