A dongle dingle

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dave Martin on 18/12/2017 14:09:38:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 13:59:15:

This will cost you less than £3, you can remove the sockets from the plug shell (by depressing the little tag) wrap them in tape and attach directly to the right pins on the 25-pin connector. Seal with Sugru.

Sorted

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 13:59:26

Neil,

All of that is fine – but we're still waiting for Sam to confirm if it really is RS232 (pretty unlikely) or it is a parallel port dongle (which the vast majority were).

Dave

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CabledUp-USB-2-0-Male-to-25-Pin-DB25-Female-Parallel-Port-Printer-Adapter-Cable/172375784085

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 14:11:04:

The ebay page has teh pin assignments:

Red wire： 5V
Black wire： GND
White wire： RXD
Green wire： TXD
Yellow wire： RTS
Blue wire： CTS

Worth a try but this converter doesn't have DTR, DCD, DSR or RI. The dongle won't work if any of them are needed.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mike Poole on 18/12/2017 13:49:39:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 11:37:33:

… unless of course, the specimen has been reassembled with the shell reversed

MichaelG.

.

That is a bit of a puzzle Michael, I have in my hand a dongle for AutoCAD 12 and it is very definitely for the parallel port pins to computer and I distinctly remember that it was for the parallel port. it looks as though the picture comes from an Acad 9 release I wonder if they changed?

Mike

.

Mike

Yes, I was seriously suggesting that the specimen might have the shell on wrong.

There's another view on the linked page which suggests that someone has had it apart.

I'm on seasonal domestic duties at the moment, but will try to dig-out my old AutoCAD installation manual later.

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mike Poole on 18/12/2017 13:49:39:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 11:37:33:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 18/12/2017 11:08:02:

Hi Sam,

Don't be put off by the chat…

I have a few CAD packages that use similar dongles, from a similar or even earlier era. They are, however, ALL parr-port , 25 pin connectors. The 25pin parr-port connector on the PC has female sockets.

I am pretty sure your dongle must plug to the parr-port NOT the serial port.

If so, your dongle must plug MALE PINS end into the PC 25pin connector.

.

For convenient reference:

Wikipedia on the parallel port: **LINK**

and the AutoCAD dongle [image borrowed from my previous link]

Which demonstrates, I believe, that the AutoCAD dongle was RS232

… unless of course, the specimen has been reassembled with the shell reversed

MichaelG.

.

Sam: It would be really useful if you could name the software in question, and post a photo of the dongle.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 11:50:17

That is a bit of a puzzle Michael, I have in my hand a dongle for AutoCAD 12 and it is very definitely for the parallel port pins to computer and I distinctly remember that it was for the parallel port. it looks as though the picture comes from an Acad 9 release I wonder if they changed?

Mike

Don't be too shocked to find there were several different types of dongle in the jungle. In my experience parallel port dongles were most common because IBM PCs & clones were ubiquitous, but there were many RS232 types about as well. Some suppliers gave you a choice. I've even seen a few Ethernet and USB dongles.

IBM unhelpfully used DB25 rather than Centronics for parallel printing on their PCs. So Sam's dongle could be 25-pin RS232 or IBM parallel – difficult to tell apart at a glance.

Dave

Dave

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

AutoCad dongles were parallel ported until they went to software activated licenses, can't remember what release that was but I used from R9 to 2017.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/12/2017 14:29:40:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 14:11:04:

The ebay page has teh pin assignments:

Red wire： 5V
Black wire： GND
White wire： RXD
Green wire： TXD
Yellow wire： RTS
Blue wire： CTS

Worth a try but this converter doesn't have DTR, DCD, DSR or RI. The dongle won't work if any of them are needed.

Dave

In 35 years of playing with RS232 I haven't yet come across one application that used anything other than RXD,TXD,CTS and RTS. 9 out of 10 only use TXD and RXD.

N.

[SquintParticipant @squint]

Hi, Although most PCs don't have a parallel port socket/plug on the rear face they still have a built in parallel port on the mother board. Check on boot up the bios settings and see if there is a parallel port setting. If so all that is needed is the socket with a flying lead (Amazon or E-bay for a couple of quid). Fix it to one of the expansion slots at the back and connect (see mother board details or google it)

Regards John

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

I still have a boxed version of Autocad 10, inc books floppy's and dongle, I purchased this in the mid to late 80's cost £2500 I seem to remember.

I also do remember the maths co processors of that era………. 8087 then 80287, 30287, the the 486 came out with built in Co pro…………

They seemed to run as fast as most windowz pc seem to now with all the bloatware bells and whistles they have……

Shaun

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 16:40:23:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/12/2017 14:29:40:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2017 14:11:04:

…

Worth a try but this converter doesn't have DTR, DCD, DSR or RI. The dongle won't work if any of them are needed.

Dave

In 35 years of playing with RS232 I haven't yet come across one application that used anything other than RXD,TXD,CTS and RTS. 9 out of 10 only use TXD and RXD.

N.

Yes, that's right. But a Dongle isn't a normal RS232 device.

For example one way of implementing a dongle is with some simple electronics that recognises a number sent asynchronously on the DSR line and responds by signalling back on RI to confirm 'dongle plugged in'. A mechanism like that allows ordinary RS232 comms to work normally whilst allowing the software to transparently check the dongle whenever it wants to. The variations are endless.

As a dongle might do it's stuff by breaking the rules, USB converters and 9-pin sockets don't always work.

Parallel dongles can pull the same sort of trick; if you know what you're doing at low-level any computer interface can be played in non-standard ways to implement a dongle.

Trouble is customers don't know how their particular dongle works. It might be OK, it might not. That's why it's always worth trying, and why success isn't guaranteed.

Dave

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 09:59:54:

My point is: If you have a dongle that was crafted for machines of that era it simply may not work on later hardware.

By all means give it a go, but don't be surprised if you fail.

This.

You can get PCI cards for serial and parallel ports. I have tried both at work. One problem is that, for somewhat arcane reasons, nether will appear at the 'standard' I/O address ranges. Software that works through the operating system abstracted devices should, with suitable drivers, work fine. Parallel printers are alive and well for specialist applications. Software that that needs to access the device directly will likely fail. Dongles tend to fall into the latter category.

[Mark DickinsonParticipant @markdickinson21936]

 

 

Ignore this, didn't look at the photo properly

Edited By Mark Dickinson on 18/12/2017 18:41:00

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 14:37:41:

I'm on seasonal domestic duties at the moment, but will try to dig-out my old AutoCAD installation manual later.

.

Found the custom 'Installation Guide' for the Olivetti M24

Unfortunately; the only reference is: "The international version of AutoCAD requires the "Hardware Lock", a small box with an electrical connector at each end included with your AutoCAD manuals and diskettes. The international version of AutoCAD cannot execute without it properly attached to your computer. Follow the instructions that come with the Hardware Lock to install it."

Needless to say; that is the one item of documentation I am missing !!

MichaelG.

.

Incidentally; we did have a look inside our dongle, but the circuit was fully potted in epoxy [and it is definitely not a simple cross-wiring job].

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 19:13:29

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 19:06:35:

Found the custom 'Installation Guide' for the Olivetti M24

Unfortunately; the only reference is: "The international version of AutoCAD requires the "Hardware Lock", a small box with an electrical connector at each end included with your AutoCAD manuals and diskettes. The international version of AutoCAD cannot execute without it properly attached to your computer. Follow the instructions that come with the Hardware Lock to install it."

Needless to say; that is the one item of documentation I am missing !!

You are not missing much. This was an era when computers were alien devices to many, hence very detailed instructions were provided. That vintage AutoCAD dongle was a pass-through parallel port device, hence the connector at each end. Physical installation was straightforward. It goes in the 25-pin parallel port. Only fits one way round. Printer cable (if any) goes in the other end. Tighten the screws. The rest is software.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That's what I thought, Alan

… But I promised to look, and felt obliged to report back.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I suppose I should inform 'retro-computing' that their exhibit is duff:

http://www.retro-computing.org/?page=item&id=289#mainphoto

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 20:38:25

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

eMail sent to the Curators

… I will report back in due course.

MichaelG.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

After hours of searching, here is my AutoCAD R14 Dongle (edited to remove serial numbers). It is a NetSENTINEL manufactured by Rainbow Technologies, supplied to my former employers in 1998 and passed to me when they changed CAD suppliers so that I could maintain their older drawings.

Although it has a parallel pass-through, only the computer end is labelled as such.

Brian

Edit: I could never get the software to run on Vista or later, and kept an old machine running Windows 2000 for AutoCAD until it was no longer needed.

Edited By Brian G on 18/12/2017 21:24:38

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Gentlemen,

After such an overwhelmingly wonderful and generous response, it is pertinent at this stage, for me to reconcile the issue.

Before I do, I thank everyone for contributing so much in such a short time. I must also apologise if calling the dongle/PC an RS232; that’s what I thought it was.

Despite the inconvenience of jumping between machines, the amount of use the CAD package would get from me, the very unhelpful response from the software company, the probability that the dongle was potted, and being rather long in the tooth myself, I’ve decided to abandon the idea.

Many thanks once again.

Seasons Greetings to everyone, and make plenty of lovely swarf in 2018.

Sam

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think dongles are not so popular with popular packages is because the hackers got round them. USB dongles still seem to be used on low volume software where hackers would not get any return.

Mike

[john swift 1Participant @johnswift1]

a long time ago I found a photo of a parallel printer port dongle on line

it had 3 diodes , a capacitor and an IC

( not that I can find it now !!!)

 

  it will need plugging  into  a parallel printer port at 378 hex

 

depending on how early a dongle it was

it could of been a ROM powered by a few pins set High (5V)

with the data lines set to one ROM address

the resulting KEY data being sent to the printer ports status inputs

(with an ASIC or PIC chip the key data can be encrypted)

 

the dongle could of been like this to pass all lines through to a printer —

 

serial versions that plugged into the RS232 ports have been made

 

John

 

PS

seeing the ground pins 18 to 25 being connected together could distinguish the dongle from a RS232 serial version

 

 

 

Edited By john swift 1 on 19/12/2017 00:58:12

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

That's something to get your teeth into John S.

I'm so much in the dark here, I've changed my Avatar

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I've just made an interesting discovery: **LINK**

https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/e5/chapter2_51.html

Would those who categorically asserted that the AutoCAD 'Hardware Lock' was always a parallel port device kindly join me in reading the opening statement on that page:

[quote]

With the introduction of AutoCAD release 2.1, all versions sold outside the United States and Canada were protected by the “hardware lock” or “WIDGET” (Walker's Inline Device Guaranteeing Elimination of Theft). This is a transparent RS-232 device which AutoCAD probes and requires to be present in order to run. When the introduction of this device went reasonably smoothly, Autodesk U.S. introduced it in the domestic market in release 2.5 in June of 1985.

[/quote]

Note: the author is John Walker, one-time President of Autodesk.

MichaelG.

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 09:59:54:.

The dongle was [for its time] a sophisticated and 'uncrackable' device, to protect a high value product.

The dongle might have been 'uncrackable', but the software it protected was not. I am embarrassed to admit now, but for a brief period some years ago, I derived a certain amount of satisfaction using a disassembler and a debugger to patch software so that it could operate dongle free. Two of my notable cracks were Autocad and P-Cad a PCB design package. After having a few cracks under the belt, knowing what to look for, I could typically crack a package in an evening.
In mitigation, other than checking that the software was still fully functional, I never personally used any of the packages that I cracked.
As a side benefit, my knowledge of the x86 CPU and the IBM PC architecture was considerably improved and stood me in good stead for some years.

Clive

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

They say that confession is good for the soul, Clive.

MichaelG.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by clivel on 20/12/2017 06:07:30:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2017 09:59:54:.

The dongle was [for its time] a sophisticated and 'uncrackable' device, to protect a high value product.

The dongle might have been 'uncrackable', but the software it protected was not. I am embarrassed to admit now, but for a brief period some years ago, I derived a certain amount of satisfaction using a disassembler and a debugger to patch software so that it could operate dongle free. Two of my notable cracks were Autocad and P-Cad a PCB design package. After having a few cracks under the belt, knowing what to look for, I could typically crack a package in an evening.
In mitigation, other than checking that the software was still fully functional, I never personally used any of the packages that I cracked.
As a side benefit, my knowledge of the x86 CPU and the IBM PC architecture was considerably improved and stood me in good stead for some years.

Clive

The local Autocad distributor was quite p*ssed off when I showed him how the 'uncrackable' dongle was circumvented by a a patch that returned the correct answer to the log-on query. Being written in assembler code it was quick. The reason why it was written was that our provided (parallal/printer port) 'dongle' obstructed the rear of the workstation and crashed the program if the system was pushed against the wall.

We had a licenced version of Autocad but just wanted to show the muppet that his claim of 'uncrackable' was pure wishful thinking and bulls*it.

So to help out our mate Sam I searched and eventually found the code. It's on a 5.5 " floppy disc so I had to hook up a drive to an old DOS box, the file is called dd.exe (dongle defeat) and it was assembled to run under MS Dos 3.3.

* Danny M *

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

But still no suggestions of where to get a dingle dongle.

All I want is a dingle dongle to dangle on the Christmas Tree…

[Author]

Posts