A couple of ‘soon to be available in the UK’ lathes that look interesting

[Lee CooperParticipant @leecooper46013]

A couple of machines (one from Amadeal, one from Warco) that look interesting.

AMABL210 E (which is a rebadged Weiss 210E). Interesting feature is that it has an electronic change gear system for threading, so no faffing around with manual gear changes. It sounds like a nice option, and is basically a lathe I’ve already been eyeballing, but with this added feature. My only concern is that the complexity of electronic gear change means more mechanical complexity to potentially go wrong. I guess time will tell. I wouldn’t consider one until some reviews come through – unless anyone has any experience with the Weiss? I don’t know if this is a recent addition to their line.

– WBL210E uses an electronic change gear system, eliminating the trouble of replacing the change gears.
– WBL210E can achieve one -click settings of the threading pitch and processing length and automatically cut the thread.

Also..

Warco 210G. I believe this is also a rebadged Weiss? Not sure. I though this had the same quick-change feature as the lathe above but on second read it’s nothing to do with the thread cutting gears, rather you can change between high and low spindle speed with the turn of a know.

https://www.warco.co.uk/home/303702-d330-pro-lathe.html

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

It’s about time something like that was available. Swapping change gears is a pain, and full electronic control drags the traditional gearbox into the twentieth century. I’d happily buy one even though they have fallen into the trap of operating several complex functions via just five buttons and a tiny screen for the menus.

[Lee CooperParticipant @leecooper46013]

Certainly agree that the interface looks a bit painful, but yes, definitely less painful than swapping gears out.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think you wil find it is  not an electronic gear change, it has an ELS type electronic drive to the lead screw and the pitch is set to whatever numbers you enter rather than selecting from a range of gears which woul dbe the case if it were an electric gear change. Similar sort of thing to the EL300 which I have posted about here before.

Will have a look as this may also use the direct drive of the 210D where the brushless motor’s shaft is actually the lathe spindle. which makes it easier to keep track of spindle & leadscrew position. EDIT no separate motor and two range pulleys

 

As for the 210G that is a geared head lathe Big knob at the top selects two different gear ratios. Unlikely to be any syncromesh so will need changing with the lathe stopped and the chuck rocking by hand to help it into gear just like other gear head lathes.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

In a similar vein, Amadeal are currently accepting advance orders for a ball screw vertical mill, also from the Weiss stable which, judging from the video, looks VERY interesting (and tempting).  I would assume that it uses similar, if not identical, software and is supposedly ideal for later expansion to CNC control.

If I hadn’t recently had a mini stroke, I think I might have already placed an order!  As it is, I’ll wait to see how things progress.

John

Edit:  No sympathy replies, please, it was a really MINI one!

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

My 100yr old Drummond can still cut any thread. Complex electronics have a 0.5% failure rate out of the box and at best 14yrs MTBF. By the way that doesn’t mean it won’t fail for 14 years so it will outlive you it means ALL units will have failed within 14 years.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John, I could not see anything on the mill to suggest it had electronic control. Just ball screws which as you say would make for easier CNC conversion. But begs the question why did they only put the ball screws on X&Y and not the Z axis too?

It does have a foot switch for the tapping function which is a bit easier than the quill mounted buttons you see on other machines and the head is now fixed so less problem setting it vertical after tilting.

I expect the electronics on the lathe are no different to what people are buying from overseas to make their own ELS convesions and all seem happy with those.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Bazyle,

That’s a novel interpretation of

Mean Time Between Failures

… could you please explain ?

MichaelG.

.

Ref. https://fiixsoftware.com/maintenance-metrics/mean-time-between-fail-maintenance/

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

[…] why did they only put the ball screws on X&Y and not the Z axis too? […]

My guess … Because with all that Gravity acting in Z there is just too much risk of back-driving.

MichaelG.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

My 100yr old Drummond can still cut any thread. Complex electronics have a 0.5% failure rate out of the box and at best 14yrs MTBF. By the way that doesn’t mean it won’t fail for 14 years so it will outlive you it means ALL units will have failed within 14 years.

Wow. I suppose I’d better throw away every electronic device in this house, as very few of them are less than 14 years old. But MTBF is Mean Time Between Failure not Maximum, which suggests your conclusion is flawed. Hopefully your Drummond is still treadle driven, so you can wear out your own joints instead of easily replaceable parts.

 

I wonder what the failure rate for new, complex, mass-produced mechanical things is? 0.5% seems like an acceptably low number to me. I’ve recovered dozens of brand new vehicles from the importers quayside to the nearest dealer for repair before they could be delivered to the dealer that ordered them. As had all of my colleagues.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

I think you wil find it is  not an electronic gear change, it has an ELS type electronic drive to the lead screw and the pitch is set to whatever numbers you enter rather than selecting from a range of gears which woul dbe the case if it were an electric gear change. Similar sort of thing to the EL300 which I have posted about here before.

Will have a look as this may also use the direct drive of the 210D where the brushless motor’s shaft is actually the lathe spindle. which makes it easier to keep track of spindle & leadscrew position. EDIT no separate motor and two range pulleys

 

As for the 210G that is a geared head lathe Big knob at the top selects two different gear ratios. Unlikely to be any syncromesh so will need changing with the lathe stopped and the chuck rocking by hand to help it into gear just like other gear head lathes.

Hi Jason.. can always count on you to add something constructive to the convo mate! Hopefully we can wrap this up before the thread hits its MTBF due to being spammed by orthogonal trivia.. 😉

Yeah the ‘electronic gear change’ bit was a quote from the Weiss blurb on the lathe. Would be interesting to see what it looks like inside.

Thanks for the info on the 210G. Stopping the lathe to change ratios isn’t a problem for me. Are these kind of gear change mechanisms generally pain free otherwise in your experience?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’d be more interested in what it sounds like as belts are generally quieter than gears which are hopefully not plastic.

I had an Emcomat 8.6 before the warco and that had 4 gear ratios and a 2 speed motor giving 8 speeds. Never had a problem but build quality was better. The Tufnol type gears ran in an oil bath that did not leak.

This shows another Weiss machine thread cutting. The 210 won’t have the cross slide control but it does say it will thread to a specified length so easier when working to a shoulder as it acts like a feed clutch and stops the feed.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Jason,

I based my assumption about the ball screws on item 11 on the Amadeal page that my link goes to, which states:

“11. VM28(L) is ball-screw type based on VM25(L), with X & Y axis ball screw and Z axis ball screw”

I read that to mean that it had ball screws to all three axes.  I haven’t re-viewed the video to see whether it sheds further light on the matter.  If I were to purchase, I’d check with Amadeal first, just in case a CNC conversion was on the horizon.

John

 

 

[Lee CooperParticipant @leecooper46013]

What Warco do you have out of interest, since I’ve been looking at them? What’s your experience been with it good/bad?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I have one of the first WM280-VF machines they imported. Bought in 2008 or 2009 so that puts me over the average and shows it is a mean not  amaximum. Very happy with the work that comes off of it. Only electrical issues in that time were one set of brushes and one speed control pot. Both easily replaced with spares from Warco at about £5 each.

This playlist shows what I have done on it if that is any indication of what the machine can do. Click the youtube logo and view it there and the models are all down the side.

I’d buy another or maybe the slightly larger 290.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would have thought cutting forces would be just as likely to see creep in the ball screws as head weight, all of which can be locked.

The description under the video when watched on Youtube just says X&Y and so do the video captions. As the video starts at 2.20 you can see a ball screw in the foreground and the TRAP one for the Z with it’s bevel gear behind.

Yes worth checking with Hugh as specs can vary. His site also says it has a tilting head but there is no tilt on the one in the video.

[John Hinkley]

On John Hinkley Said:

[…] I haven’t re-viewed the video to see whether it sheds further light on the matter. […]

The video that I watched made it very clear what they had done.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I’ve been happy with my BV20 Lathe from Axminster. It has a gearbox for speed changes so quite convenient and no worries over burnt out speed control boards that plagued *some machines years ago.

I did toy with the idea of getting a 920 lathe with the built in thread cutting gearbox but I didn’t fancy belt swapping for speed changes and couldn’t afford a VFD for it. I still think this is an ideal lathe for many model engineers if you can afford to replace the motor and add a VFD. Shame it’s no longer available.

* A work mate bought a variable speed milling machine and ending up buying at least three new circuit boards due to failure outside the warranty. It was so common at one point that at least one enterprising person was supplying repaired boards. You sent out your own burnt out unit and he’d supply a replacement by return of post if he had one in stock.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The 280 machines have had 3-phase motors and VFD for a number of years now. Mine has the older DC motor and associated board from the time vic mentions!

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

[…]  all of which can be locked.

🙂

Thus rather defeating the point of having a machine!

… but seriously, it is obviously much easier [and still very useful] to only add ball-screws to the table.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Not quite sure what you mean Michael. It is always good practice to lock the unused axis on a mill except the one you are feeding along. It would probably be needed a bit more with the ball screws. The reason I did not think the head dropping to be any more of an issue is that all these machines tend to have a spring or gas strut that take the majority of the heads weight so not much downwards load. Also the Z axis screw is meant a sa coarse movement to get the head to about the right position. It is then locked and the quill fine feed used to put on the actual cuts so no risk of a ball screw allowing the tool to work it’s way down into the work.

In the factory it probably does not make a lot of difference to the ease of fitmet and not much more will be added to the overall cost. But in the home where you may need a second mill to alter the mill you are wanting to convert then it is certainly an advantage and will make the conversion easier. I see a lot of Poo Pooing of people wanting to fit ball screws to manual machines due to lack of holding ability here so whether that is useful or not depends on who you talk to.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Not quite sure what you mean Michael. It is always good practice to lock the unused axis on a mill except the one you are feeding along. […]

It was just a flippant remark upon your words [taken literally] Jason

… I hoped that would be obvious from the statement that followed.

MichaelG.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I admit it.  I got it wrong about the Z-axis on the VM28L.  It’s the larger (and thus more expensive) VM35L mill which has ball screws on all three axes this is the link to that one It even says in the Amadeal description that “it is the most suitable for CNC conversion” – if only I’d read it.  I didn’t because I was swayed by the price!

John

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

To be fair to you John Amadeals site does say both have ball screws on all 3 axis.

It’s a pity they did not spec a higher spindle speed on thes eCNC suitable machines, 2250rpm is a bit slow, another 5000rpm ontop of that would be nice.

Would also be nice to know if the “high precision” taper roller bearings is just sales talk for something more precise than plain or angular contact bearings or actual high spec ones like my Sieg has that cost a couple of hundread quid if they need replacing as they are a matched pair to a actual higher spec than run of the mill TRBs

[Lee CooperParticipant @leecooper46013]

Thanks for the info on your Warco, Jason. Some impressive work you’ve turned out there so capable machine and capable operator!

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