A change is as good as a rest

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Ramon,

 

Could you do me a favour and make something really manky. It would make me feel better.

 

Neil

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

‘ Morning Neil,

 

Sue and I have just had a good chuckle at your wry request

 

I can’t promise anything definite of course but I will try to see what I can do, in the meantime you just carry on as you are as you don’t do a half bad job yourself

 

As they say in these parts ” Jest you a keep onna troshen bor ” (Andy might offer a translation if you need one)

 

Regards – Ramon

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

If you saw me last night, melting the back plates off my buffer stocks as I made such a bad job of squaring them up..

 

Neil

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Just an update guy’s – the valve gear is well under way but have to take a break for a couple of days so heres the current state of play

 

 

 

There’s just the rocking shaft and arm to complete the top end and then the eccentric, strap and rod to do and it should be ticking over on air. The flywheel finally got fettled and primed too – only some fourteen years after it was made

 

The drawings have proved to be very good – the dimensions were just scaled 1.333 and converted direct to metric ie not rounded up or down. It’s all gone together extremely well. I carefully checked the valve guide hole position relative to the C/L of the cylinder before fitting the guides and had to redrill them to make allowance for the steam chest gasket . Now that is good dimensioning

 

Not sure whether to keep on going after the valve gear is finished as itching to make a start on another IC but it’s getting close just the governor, inlet valve and exhaust – we’ll see

 

Hope this is still of interest

 

Regards – Ramon

 

 

 

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

It’s looking very good Ramon, well done.

 

JD

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi again guy’s,

Things are progressing well despite some time out from the workshop that wasn’t planned for. Whatever, the engine is within a day or so of running if things go right.

 

I sent Terry D some drawings and this morning received a PM regarding the make up of the flywheel. Unfortunately there were no pics taken when it was made – cor! I think digital cameras were only then – if then – being used by professionals. My first little Nikon 2mp wouldn’t come along until several years later. Incidently that’s what I still use to take these workshop pics.

 

I can only describe the flywheels’ make up as best I remember doing it. It was the first time such a project had been undertaken and apart from one hiccup in the very early stage was a comparatively easy thing to make and get reasonably true.

 

The rim was milled from a flame cut blank courtesy of a good friend who had access to such facilities. This was done at work – the first (sanctioned) ‘homer’ on the new Haas machining centre ”Don’t ya jest miss these things when yer retired’

 

Originally the rim had a half round section which was turned after the wheel was assembled. It was then removed at a later date as it didn’t look right.

 

I simply can’t remember what the rim was held to for drilling the holes for the spoke bolts but I do remember it hanging over the side of the Bridgeport table to carry out this op. This was when the hiccup occurred as the rim moved throwing the first two holes out. It was reset and the holes redrilled successfully. Each hole is counterbored for a 2BA caphead so the misplaced holes required two plugs Loctited one behind the other to disguise them. When the half round rim was removed it exposed the lower plugs which can be seen in the early pics above. These have now been filled with JB Weld.

 

The remainder of the parts were machined at home. The hub was a straight forward turning and drilled and reamed – probably for a .250 dowel at this early stage. It was drilled and tapped radially 2BA for the spokes and each station counterbored to a set depth to take the spoke boss.

The spokes were turned from mild steel drilled and tapped 2BA at each end but about 3mm over length. They were then set between centres for turning the bosses to a uniform diameter and turning the tapers. ‘Studs’ were made from 2BA caphead bolts and Loctited into each spoke boss then inturn each spoke was Loctited into the hub.

 

The ends of each spoke were milled to the radius of the inner face of the flywheel. A very simple plate fixture was bolted to the rotary table that had a spigot to centralise the hub to the R/T. Each spoke was clamped one at a time into the fixture and the milling pass taken across the end of one spoke. Released, the spokes were rotated on the spigot to the next in line, reclamped and the op repeated. The spokes were then dropped into the rim and 2BA capheads screwed and Loctited in followed by plugs to disguise the holes

 

The area around each spoke at hub and rim was ‘filleted’ with Devcon epoxy steel to flare each spoke which once fettled helps give the illusion of a casting.

 

It then returned to work to have the rim set true and the bore opened up to take the shaft. It was only last year when it was assembled that the rim was found to have a slight run out (side to side). With no big lathe to call on now it was set up on the mill and rebored and sleeved which whilst not curing it completely certainly improved it no end.

 

So there you are Terry, and any others who may be interested I hope that’s proved enlightening and perhaps encouraging to do like wise. Certainly beats the hell out of paying the price of castings

 

Regards for now – Ramon

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Ramon,

 

I’m sure you will be interested in the scan of page 298 of ME No.2729, 10/9/1953.

ETW reviews a model of your prototype by ‘Messrs. Kent and Tapper”.

 

Another article I can’t find has a close up of the valve gear and says they spent two years researching and making drawings of the engine which is/was in the Science Museum. Warning! You may be distressed by the very different flywheel.

 

 

There are two engravings of a similar engine in an ME from the mid 40’s. I’ll see if I can find them.

 

I managed to get Thomas Tredgold’s “the Steam Engine” free through Google Books. It has similar (the same?) engraving near the end and frustratingly you can see the ‘ghost’ of a different view through the following pages (which is stamped “the New York Public Library Astor, Lennox Tilden Foundation”). This engine is described as a portable(!!) condensing engine of Mr Maudsley. presumably portable as it isn’t ‘house built’. Only fig1 front elevation has been scanned properly, not the L/S and end view

 

Neil

 

 

[adyParticipant @ady]

Hi Ramon,

Could you do me a favour and make something really manky. It would make me feel better.

 

I second this motion!

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Ramon Wilson on 01/12/2011 20:04:47:

 

………………………….So there you are Terry, and any others who may be interested I hope that’s proved enlightening and perhaps encouraging to do like wise. Certainly beats the hell out of paying the price of castings

 

Regards for now – Ramon

 

 

Thanks Ramon,

 

Obvious, once explained! By the way, I will also second Neil’s motion. Great build, once again thanks, there is always so much to learn and so little time.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Thanks for the post Neil, I do have a couple of older ME references to table engines but this one is new.

 

Having read it I then checked Anthony Mounts (very) short intro on the Waller prototype. He states that this engine was taken from a book written by a director of George Waller and Co and published in 1880. According to AM this is quite late for this type of engine. I believe AM develops many of his designs from old patents, engravings etc and I assume that is the case here though no reference is given as such.

 

I suspect that there may be a degree then of artistic licence as though the text does refer at various times to the prototype design it is a rather ambiguous as to whether it’s fact or AM’s interpretation. The flywheel which is to ‘my interpretation’ could, I agree, be considered a little heavy for the type but it’s rather late in the day now to make another (of this size) given the kit available …….

 

Well I’m pleased to say that at last it’s running on air. I jury rigged the eccentric rod yesterday to ascertain the length just to be sure but like all the other dimensions it was very close to that scaled. Today then saw the rod made and fitted and a quick run for a couple of pics.

 

It appears as if it’s about to take off but ifact its not much more than a fast tick over. The airline is just pushed ito the steam inlet hole so is escaping all round and the pressure is just on 15psi.

 

 

In attempt to ‘slow things down a little for a better pic the hose was bent to restrict the air but the camera still isn’t up to the very slow tick over in this one either. Oh well I’m sure it tells a story

 

It’s time for a bloody good clean down now before the final hurdle. I’ve decided to finish it before starting the next I/C project so it’s the governor next.

 

 

Now guy’s re your (what I hope is) a backhanded compliment. When Neil first raised it it brought a smile on as it’s not the first time that’s happened.

 

It’s difficult to put this into words but I value the opportunity on here to share what I’ve done model wise with others who may gain some benefit from it and obviously likewise the reverse.

I have said it before and no doubt will again but to me this is one big ME club but with one big difference and certainly for me it’s biggest asset – we can talk to each other on a daily basis not just once a month. As a non ME club member it’s my only social contact with like minded folk – as such then it’s become a big part of my hobby.

 

Over many years I have received some very nice comments about things I have made but it has to be borne in mind it is all relative. When I think of some of the truly awesome and beautifully made models seen over the years and no, not all fine examples of model engineering, I’m only too aware that I’m just scratching the surface.

 

One can only have a go at whatever level you are comfortable with.

 

I do however deeply believe in the inspiration you can get from others – no, not always to do as well and certainly not to try to out do but to try to do just a little bit better each time for your own self satisfaction. That said no matter what level you are at you should never, ever, allow what others achieve to cloud your outlook (that’s not suggesting that’s happening here – just making the point).

 

I truly hope I’m not seen as posting things I’ve done as some kind of self praise. That is very definitely not my intention – oh yes it is nice to recieve the odd comment of appreciation but so much nicer when someone asks why or how did you do it like that. That’s the real nub of why I’m here

 

Ok philosphy time over back to the clean up I guess hope you understand

 

Regards – Ramon

[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

Ramon,

For newer recruits like me – “I’m sure I could make something like that”. You aim, and you miss, but each time you learn a little more, and eventually, and hopefully, become a tolerable machinist, or, like so many others on here, (yourself included), an excellent machinist.

I’m starting at the age of 69, and I’ve so much to learn. I have learned a lot from the fellows on here, and who knows, I might have something worthwhile to contribute eventually.

 

When you’ve done an excellent piece of work which pleases you and others, show it off. Then we can pick your brains and find out how you did so and so.

 

Dennis

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

“I truly hope I’m not seen as posting things I’ve done as some kind of self praise. That is very definitely not my intention – oh yes it is nice to recieve the odd comment of appreciation but so much nicer when someone asks why or how did you do it like that. That’s the real nub of why I’m here”

 

Ramon, I’ve been accused of just that by publishing stuff on my own website. Apparentally, according to one contributor to ME, I do it ‘just to show off’ and because ‘I can’. Like you, I do it because I hope what I do is off interest to others and may help them to see how things can be done. Keep up the good work. Your work is outstanding and an inspiration to others

 

John

 

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> As a non ME club member it’s my only social contact with like minded folk – as such then it’s become a big part of my hobby.

I’d agree with that 100%.

John, Ramon (and others) – I much appreciate the inspiration of what others can do, and yes it certainly inspires me to do better myself Jealousy here has no place. I hope a bit of envy (i.e. I want to be as good as you, not best) is permissible!

Here are scans of a 1947 article about the similar (but different) Maudlsey engine. The reference to the original is on Google books, but once again the plates have been largely mis-scanned or left out GRRR!!!! They do have a scary cross section of the valves, but still no end elevation.

 

I’d like to ‘do’ this one!

 

Neil

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes keep up the postings Ramon, they do inspire. I mentioned the Benson at teh start of this thread and following your more detailed posts on HMEM I was inspired to make the cylinder from CI and JB Weld rather than the bronze I had intended, work to date

 

Keep up teh good work, Jason

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Dennis, John, thanks for your input it’s appreciative to hear your views. However I’m at pains here to stress I’m not having a go at anyone merely an observation on how I see ME or indeed any of my other hobbies both past and present from my own perspective and with regard to how others may see it.

 

I can see where you are coming from though John – very much a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t – but that’s not the situation here.

 

Having exchanged views on here with Neil from time to time it was with a wry smile I received his comment about making something ‘ manky’ (I always thought that was a Suffolk expression, obviously not) and just as wry when Ady endorsed it. I just wanted to make the point that we should all see things at our own level and not let others affect or influence it unless we desire it to. I have to confess it gives me great deal of satisfaction when, having helped someone seeing at a later date some of that help manifesting itself in whatever that person is doing. Personally I find that situation very rewarding.

 

So on that note, just in case it was interpreted the wrong way, no offence was meant and I hope Neil, Ady and Terry have not taken my comments the wrong way.

 

 

Well following a marathon clean up ready for the next stage I took a good look at the governor drawings tonight and came rapidly to the conclusion that I don’t have the balls to make it . (Oooh sister!).

I have some 1/2″ and a couple of 20mm but have no idea where I got them from – probably through work but that was an eon ago. Does anyone know where single ball bearings can be bought – that is in twos as opposed to hundreds? I need 16mm or 5/8 diameter. Failing their availablity it’s going to have to be turning them from some EN1a super freecutting but I’d rather not have to go down that route if possible.

 

Regards for now – Ramon

 

 

 

 

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Oops guys,

Looks like I jumped the gun – I confess the post was written over the course of the evening interupted by TV – I know, how sad

 

Thanks for the further pages Neil – I shall read them later .

 

Jason, that’s really good to hear of your intentions and I look forward to seeing your progress. How much else have you done to it so far and have you managed to find a suitable flywheel or are you going to fabricate it or machine it from solid? Certainly like to hear more about it .

 

As always thanks for your comments

 

Regards – Ramon

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Ramon

 

Was browsing Ebay and found these in packs of 10 at quite a reasonable buy now price. Thought they may fit the bill for you governor’s balls, if you’ll excuse the expression.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Reeves list 5/8 bronze & Stainles balls and over half inch are sold as singles

 

I have done several other bits and souced a near enough flywheel, rather than hijack your thread I’ll start another.

 

J

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by JasonB on 05/12/2011 07:32:32:

Reeves list 5/8 bronze & Stainles balls and over half inch are sold as singles

 

I have done several other bits and souced a near enough flywheel, rather than hijack your thread I’ll start another.

 

J

Hi Jason,

 

But at what a price for 5/8″, plus postage makes £9.70 for 2! I think that I would buy the 10 from eBay and sell the rest on at a reasonable price to fellow modellers. Or of course here at about £12.30 inc postage for 10.

 

Looking forward to your build Jason, lets have lots of pictures.  Will you be writing it up on HMEM?

 

Regards

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 05/12/2011 09:56:01

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi again, thanks Martin for the info and links – all sorted – it never fails to amaze me what can be found on ebay. There are one or two distractions laying in the wings in the next few weeks but the governor might just be finished for Xmas.

 

Sounds like you have a good start Jason, I’ll look forward to your thread too.

 

Regards – Ramon

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ah but the thing to remember is that the ball I linked to are unhardened, by the time you have added the cost of a cobalt drill bit and then worked out how to tap them so they don’t fly off the ends of the arms the Reeves ones seem a good buy compared wit Terry & martins links.

 

Must admit it was early in the morning and I only checked the reeves paper catalogue so didn’t know the price.

 

Terry I’ll probably do it on HMEM as its easier than this site but put up a link here.

 

J

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Jason,

 

Looking forward to it already.

 

I wasn’t sure whether or not the balls from Reeves were hard. I’ve never bought any from them and their site doesn’t carry much in the way of information or technical specs. Do you know if the hardened stainless can be heat treated to reduce the hardness? The guy on eBay reckons his can be drilled according to his description, mind you he doesn’t say how!

 

Regards

 

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry.

 

Having looked through the site you referred me too the ‘drillable’ balls have a rockwell of 52-57 and the non drillable of 60 something plus. I would think that drilling the former would require a carbide drill but I doubt you could tap them

 

My intention is is to do what I did on the Victoria and that is to give them a good soak at a highish heat – bright red going on orange – then bring the heat down as slowly as possible. I did the Vic’s in the heat treament oven at work letting them cool with the oven overnight. They then drilled and tapped with ease. The best I can do now is by dropping them into coal fire ash some of which I’ve kept for years. It’s about the best thing I know of for maintaining heat as long as possible. I’m fairly confident it willl work – just have to wait and see. If it doesnt work I’ll try the same thing with some charcoal letting it cool with the embers

 

Strange isn’t – coal ash is not exactly a readilly available comodity these days

 

Regards – Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 06/12/2011 08:42:05

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ramon,

 

I’ve just remembered that I have a number of 10mm hardened balls. I have a few to spare so I may try your heat treatment process next time we have a log fire (most weekends at this time of year). They will get to a good orange heat and soak there for an hour or two and can be left in the ashes overnight to cool. I’ll let you know how I get on.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I wounder whether the ball from an old computor mouse is hard or soft under the coaling, I’v got a few, must have a look. Ian S C

[Author]

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