A Big Treat coming for Readers of MEW

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

To really stretch a modern computer, you need something like a an interactive shoot'em up game. As these are popular with the yoof, even basic machines these days have enough grunt to do 3D CAD. It just has to be reasonably modern. Unless you go deliberately down market with a tablet, or a very cheap laptop, secondhand, or use a server, you will get a moderately fast multi-core processor with at least 4Gb of memory, and – most important – a recent Graphics Processing Unit (GPU).

A GPU is an interesting beast. It provides massive parallel processing for graphics that can be tapped into by anything needing serious mathematical grunt in the way of matrix manipulations. Like 3D CAD with Finite Element Analysis.

My experience with Fusion360 on Windows 10 is probably typical of what might be expected of Alibre. Fusion runs satisfactorily on an ordinary 3 year old 64 bit 4-core mid-range laptop with a hard disk. It's a genteel home-office machine, not a hot multi-media or games box. Fusion tells me the laptop's bog-standard built-in Intel graphics card (with GPU) isn't optimum, but everything works. I've animated a couple of simple engines (100 odd parts and joints) with no sign of slowing down, though the cooling fan gets busy! The laptop's a bit sluggish, not bad enough to annoy, and I use it a lot while watching TV with my daughter. (She makes me watch terrible telly.)

However, Fusion feels far more slick on a 4 year old 8-core mid-range workstation with an SSD & 8Gb memory. The really significant difference though is the workstation's big screen: I'd recommend buying one for any serious work on a computer. Doing CAD on a small screen is a bit like modelling through a letter-box.

Graphics is one of those areas in electronics that advance rapidly every few years . Unfortunately the advances rely on lots of fast memory and up-to-date hardware. In that context 32-bit and XP aren't 'reasonably modern'. I'm afraid if you want to do 2018 CAD, an upgrade may be necessary if you own an old computer. You have my sympathy, I found converting to Windows 10 irritating because I had to switch off unwanted new features that intrude on my privacy. Apart from that it's OK.

Dave

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

What provision will there be for CAM since it is a requirement of full usability. I see that AlibreCAM 2018 is just short of £500 plus the initial £200 odd for Atom. Just to put some perspective on it.

Still a reasonable price all up. But to my parsimonious mind it might be more interesting if an integrated package had "a bit of deal" attached.

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

I think one of the questions are how does Alibre atom compare with Fusion 360 considering the later is free. I'm wanting to use 3d cad and tried Turbocad (which I really found unintuitive) downloaded Fusion a couple of weeks ago but not done very much at all, is it worth getting or should I continue with Fusion. Oh what a dilemma

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Limpet on 02/10/2018 15:09:09:

I think one of the questions are how does Alibre atom compare with Fusion 360 considering the later is free. I'm wanting to use 3d cad and tried Turbocad (which I really found unintuitive) downloaded Fusion a couple of weeks ago but not done very much at all, is it worth getting or should I continue with Fusion. Oh what a dilemma

I think you need to start by getting to grips with only one of them. Picking up any CAD package from scratch is a steep learning curve, and poking about inside 3 might lead to madness!

On paper, Fusion looks to be more fully featured than AlibreAtom, and – for hobbyists – it's free, at least for the time being. Some negatives. Fusion is still being developed – I use it intermittently and quite often have to take an update before starting work. It's slightly unstable, though I've never lost anything. I'm not keen on storing stuff in the cloud, but so far so good. I find it fairly intuitive to drive, though early on I had several bruising encounters. (Typically when I expected the package to do things one way when it actually does it another.) I've found some things that ought to be easy but aren't, like positioning text on a circular path as on a coin. On the whole, it's impressive.

No experience with Alibre yet, but they claim it's easier to use than the competition. This might be true, for example, when defining parts, Fusion creates a 'Body' that often has to be converted into a 'Component' before certain tools will work with it, which I feel is an unnecessary complication. A quick look at Alibre's website suggests it's worth checking before committing to Atom that it includes everything you want – for example, I believe Finite Element Analysis and other tools are extras. This might effect advanced users.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Rod Ashton on 02/10/2018 14:55:41:

What provision will there be for CAM since it is a requirement of full usability. I see that AlibreCAM 2018 is just short of £500 plus the initial £200 odd for Atom. Just to put some perspective on it.

Still a reasonable price all up. But to my parsimonious mind it might be more interesting if an integrated package had "a bit of deal" attached.

I think the best answer to that is 'wait and see', there could be up to three affordable integrated hobbyist/small user CAM solutions available from Mintronics in the near future.

I have no idea if any special offers will be made available at the end of the trial.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 02/10/2018 18:18:40

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Limpet on 02/10/2018 15:09:09:

I think one of the questions are how does Alibre atom compare with Fusion 360 considering the later is free. I'm wanting to use 3d cad and tried Turbocad (which I really found unintuitive) downloaded Fusion a couple of weeks ago but not done very much at all, is it worth getting or should I continue with Fusion. Oh what a dilemma

My worry about Fusion360 is that it will go the same way as Autodesk's free 3D printing utilities, starting with lost of features and then seeing them gradually disappear.

I suggest trying Alibre with the tutorials and example files (which will be available in less than a month's time) and seeing how you get on. It won't cost you anything except some time.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 02/10/2018 18:16:47

[Alan VosParticipant @alanvos39612]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 02/10/2018 14:51:01:

The really significant difference though is the workstation's big screen: I'd recommend buying one for any serious work on a computer. Doing CAD on a small screen is a bit like modelling through a letter-box.

I have to agree. At work, I seem to have picked up the role of occasional 3D draftsman and printer operator. A 4K screen makes a very noticeable improvement. Physical screen size to suit eyesight. An HP Z32 seems to be working well for me, including general text use.

Side note. The CPU is AMD Radeon HD 7540D. According to all the data I can find, the maximum resolution is 2560×1600. In practice, it delivers decent 3840×2160. There is a bug with Fusion 360 drawings, the derived 2D kind. The same bug also appears on a much more recent Intel CPU. WIth 4K, drawings in the bottom 40% (ish) of the screen don't appear. So use the top 60%, there are still plenty of pixels. I really should log that as a bug.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

If you have any interest in any of full 3D modelling / drawing environment, true multiaxis CAM (CNC or 3D printing), sheet metal, thermal / stress / vibration analysis, a wide and very open user base, an active development team and user forum etc, then Fusion is for you, not least due to the fact that all of this is free.

It's true that the product is still in development but having followed them (and used it) for the last 3 years or so, they are clearly very close to having a finished product. The "missing" features are probably ones very few us would ever have a need for. If you have any doubt about its capability, have a look at what is being done with it.

Portability or the ability to export your work into other formats is an important consideration. I have some Geomagic / Alibre files that can't be opened unless I pay for a license, whereas the likes of Fusion come with a wide range of import / export capabilities. So even IF Fusion were to start charging (which I doubt), you'd be able to save your work beforehand and open it in another application. I can do this with my existing SW files, although there is no way with any import filter to retain the mates / joints / assembly constraints, so you have to reassemble the individual parts afterwards

There was another factor that caused me to stop using my works Solidworks licence – the longer I used it, the more work would be at risk of loss unless I were eventually to buy a license myself, at vast initial (and eyewatering ongoing "maintenance&quot costs. This greedy behaviour on the part of Solidworks is of course the very opportunity that the Fusion team is capitalising on.

Murray

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

But look on the bright side Murray, you have all these forum members who will have their free trial of Atom3D tripping over themselves to open up your old Alibre files for you and export as something you can use in F360

Or you could even download the trial yourself and be able to open up all those old files.

" I have some Geomagic / Alibre files that can't be opened unless I pay for a license, whereas the likes of Fusion come with a wide range of import / export capabilities. So even IF Fusion were to start charging (which I doubt), you'd be able to save your work beforehand and open it in another application"

I suppose the same could have been said for your old Alibre, had you exported the files in another format before you were unable to use them they could have been opened in another program.

 

Edited By JasonB on 02/10/2018 19:28:17

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Does anyone know how Atom3D compares with '3d Systems Cubify Design'?

Looking at the history they both seem to have the same origins.

Is it going to be worth £200 to upgrade? In fact is it going to be worth me downloading the trial? Are MEW subscribers going to get a discount when the trial period ends?

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The only way to know if its worth it is to try it.

The chief benefits seem to be:

• Your data sits on your computer and you aren't hostage to future changes in a 'cloud' operator's policy.
• A fairly short learning curve as there are not a huge number of operations to understand and they all work in consistent ways.
• The tutorial series that will appear in MEW and support materials on this website will use relevant examples – mostly designs that have previously appeared in MEW.
• If you do buy, then you get it outright, no forced upgrades or support fees.

i don't know if there will be any offers, but the more people doing the trial, I imagine the more the incentive to convert those people into long term users…

I do know Alibre want to a have thriving hobbyist user base – they aren't just looking to convert students into users of the top-end systems.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Dave, Atom3D is very much like Cubify Design which in turn was like the older Alibre PE ( Personal Edition) all are basically the same to use as the full blown Alibre but with a few of the bells and whistles disabled. This shows what the various versions do, Atom should have more than enough for most hobby users.

Also worth mentioning that Alibre also has a user forum and tutorials can be found on the likes of Youtube. Worth having a look at the Gallery section of the forum to see what it can do once you get the hang of things, quite a few ME subjects there.

Edited By JasonB on 03/10/2018 07:04:14

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

I hope that the contact people at Alibre now have better developed people skills than the manager of their Australian office a few years ago…………….

cheers

Bill

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Muzzer on 02/10/2018 18:53:47:

There was another factor that caused me to stop using my works Solidworks licence – the longer I used it, the more work would be at risk of loss unless I were eventually to buy a license myself, at vast initial (and eyewatering ongoing "maintenance" costs. This greedy behaviour on the part of Solidworks is of course the very opportunity that the Fusion team is capitalising on.

I downloaded the 2018 version of the 'free' Solidworks eDrawings Viewer a while ago as the previous version became incapable of handling newer file versions. To enable the download they require all your contact details regardless of if you are using the viewer commercially or at home (in hindsight 'fake' details with a disposable email address might have worked) . Since then the sales rep has contacted me several times by email wanting to run a demo 'at my premises' and now they are in contact yet again offering three years interest free credit on a Solidworks licence.

In contrast despite 'using' Fusion 360 for a long time there have so far been no attempts to get me to pay to upgrade.

But ultimately I wouldn't trust any software that relies on 'the cloud' nor indeed any software that requires an activation process or a dongle and I'm not sure the 'free' use model for F360 will remain forever. While cloud storage may be useful in backup capability and flexibility in location of use it can also go very wrong with designs lost or leaked.

For most use cases just sell high quality properly debugged software to me on durable media, that I can copy myself, at a reasonable price, if necessary give me a key that will never ever expire regardless of any hardware upgrades I make, giving me software on a platform that will be around as long as I decide. If it's complicated enough to use then provide a support forum that is free to use and above all make your sales people simply go away until I decide I want to 'upgrade'.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 03/10/2018 07:51:58:

I hope that the contact people at Alibre now have better developed people skills than the manager of their Australian office a few years ago…………….

cheers

Bill

Go back a page and click on the link I posted.

Alibre was bought up by a company whose focus was not on the hobby level product.

Fairly recently several of the original team bought back the rights to Alibre.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Martin 100 on 03/10/2018 10:37:45:

For most use cases just sell high quality properly debugged software to me on durable media, that I can copy myself, at a reasonable price, if necessary give me a key that will never ever expire regardless of any hardware upgrades I make, giving me software on a platform that will be around as long as I decide. If it's complicated enough to use then provide a support forum that is free to use and above all make your sales people simply go away until I decide I want to 'upgrade'.

Cloud systems allow the software vendor to know what use people are making of the package so they can see when someone should be paying more or identify marketing opportunities.

Obviously different packages will suit different people, but I suspect you are exactly the sort of user Alibre are looking for!

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by JasonB on 02/10/2018 19:19:48:

I suppose the same could have been said for your old Alibre, had you exported the files in another format before you were unable to use them they could have been opened in another program.

The trial ran out before I had a replacement. Then my daughter needed some help getting up to speed with Solid Edge and I played with this for a while. Very nice and powerful, proper professional stuff. Then her trial finished and I had access to Solidworks through my job. I have yet to see any mainstream programs that can import native Alibre files, so you are stuck with exporting as STP and IGS which lose most of the model parameters – it's hardly worth doing.

As I recall, the license cost for Alibre was pretty steep, there was no "hobby" pricing and the local rep (covering Canada) was pretty condescending (insulting in fact), so we left it there. Yes, I know it's under new ownership.

30 or even 90 day trials are all very well but just be aware that the time you invest and the work you produce won't be 100 recoverable if you change horses. I enjoyed learning each of SE, SW, Onshape, Inventor and Fusion in a structured, methodical way but if you are just trying to get something done, you might want to look at ongoing costs and whether the features you want are there (or cost extra) before you start.

Murray

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/10/2018 11:29:24:

Alibre was bought up by a company whose focus was not on the hobby level product.

The focus wasn't on the product full stop, not just the hobby end. I've been using Alibre Expert for 12+ years but I almost got to the point of dumping it and moving on. If some of the original team hadn't bought it back I'd have stopped paying maintenance by now.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Muzzer on 03/10/2018 12:51:25:

As I recall, the license cost for Alibre was pretty steep, there was no "hobby" pricing and the local rep (covering Canada) was pretty condescending (insulting in fact), so we left it there. Yes, I know it's under new ownership.

I think it's fair to say that's why it's under new ownership, or more accurately back with the original owners who did have hobby pricings etc.

Neil

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

So, while waiting for it to turn up:- how long will the trial be and how long will the educational series be? Pretty pleeze.

Edited By Mark Rand on 03/10/2018 15:21:12

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Mark Rand on 03/10/2018 15:20:28:

So, while waiting for it to turn up:- how long will the trial be and how long will the educational series be

You mean to say you have not read No 273 which has this info

Edited By JasonB on 03/10/2018 15:29:59

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/10/2018 11:34:06:

Cloud systems allow the software vendor to know what use people are making of the package so they can see when someone should be paying more or identify marketing opportunities.

Obviously different packages will suit different people, but I suspect you are exactly the sort of user Alibre are looking for!

Really the cloud should be nothing more than storage, but we all know it isn't. Somewhere, somehow we sign away rights so someone, usually the likes of Google can pillage our emails and search history and everything else we do online to force 'targetted' adverts upon us. Once upon a time google's doctrine was 'do no evil' they somehow forgot that a long time ago. Adblockers and no-scripting and even things like the TOR browser help somewhat.

With CAD & CAM they give us lots of 'cool' functionality sometimes 'for free' but that comes with a creeping intrusion into the very soul of a company or inventor. Even though I use F360 I really do not want Autodesk to know at all that I'm thinking of making product x with machine Y and months or years before product x is manufactured they know so much about product X they can cross reference me to public records or browsing history or whatever.

You'd hope with GDPR and the severe penalties it brings then things would be secure and free from prying eyes but I doubt it really is. Yet with ideas and designs in the cloud you should be secure from that sudden, sunday afternoon on the sofa laptop hard disk crash that wipes out months or years worth of work and takes down a fledgling company (or even a mature one with flaky IT infrastructure)

I've had Alibre trials in the past, never stuck with it because of the learning curve and lots of other things that need more of my attention that by the time it might have been useful the low cost of entry had simply evaporated and slinging 400 quid as opposed to the 99 quid it was a few months earlier was way beyond justifiable.

This extended trial might even persuade me to get a subscription to MEW

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Posted by JasonB on 03/10/2018 15:28:54:

Posted by Mark Rand on 03/10/2018 15:20:28:

So, while waiting for it to turn up:- how long will the trial be and how long will the educational series be

You mean to say you have not read No 273 which has this info

Edited By JasonB on 03/10/2018 15:29:59

Unfortunately some of us have to rely on international mail. If my magazine arrives on schedule, it should be here between the 16th and 22nd of October.

This of course doesn't take into account the not so occasional problem at Canada Post which can delay international mail a further month or two.

Which brings us to another point. If for example the trial expires on a fixed date rather than a certain period after installation, international readers could be losing a significant percentage of the trial unless it is for a few months in which case the point is moot.

Clive

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Posted by Muzzer on 02/10/2018 18:53:47:

I have some Geomagic / Alibre files that can't be opened unless I pay for a license, ….

Murray

Or just install an Alibre Design trial – it'll allow opening and export, after the trial expires it'll still work as a viewer.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Posted by JasonB on 03/10/2018 15:28:54:

Posted by Mark Rand on 03/10/2018 15:20:28:

So, while waiting for it to turn up:- how long will the trial be and how long will the educational series be

You mean to say you have not read No 273 which has this info

Edited By JasonB on 03/10/2018 15:29:59

Doesn't seem to have made it all the way to warwickshire yet…

[Author]

Posts