8BA to 1/8 Whitworth

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For the job at hand, this probably comes under the heading "too much information" … but I will post it anyway, for convenient future reference: **LINK**

https://www.ring-plug-thread-gages.com/PDChart/BA-thread-data.html

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

5BA is looking good (dimensions, English made, and John's fishing reel knowledge), but if it's a non-standard thread, or was made off-spec by worn/inaccurate tooling, what's the best way of making a nut to fit?

If it was a bigger diameter screw, I'd make a silver steel tap metric pitch = 0.6 'near enough', and undersized to suit the worn out male. But this, I think, is a tad delicate for my lathe, mill and clumsy paws. How were small taps made in the good old days?

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

5BA may look good on paper but not a lot of use to the OP.

He has said that the male thread measures 0.085", don't know about you two but that's smaller than what I drill tapping size for 5BA so any 5BA nut is going to slide straight onto the thread not screw.

[Nearly DoneParticipant @nearlydone]

Thanks Michael,

All info is appreciated.

Yes John is correct it's from an early hardy perfect. I did do some research before getting the nut made and even ran a brass 8BA nut down it, but that nut was not very thick

I think John could be right about oversize due to old tooling. I think I shall try an 8BA die on the stud and see how it feels.

really appreciate the help given on here.

[Nearly DoneParticipant @nearlydone]

This shows the brass 8BA nut that I tried first.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 27/06/2019 11:43:30:

5BA may look good on paper but not a lot of use to the OP.

He has said that the male thread measures 0.085", don't know about you two but that's smaller than what I drill tapping size for 5BA so any 5BA nut is going to slide straight onto the thread not screw.

.

Which is exactly why I wrote:

"BUT if it started life at 5BA, it must be very worn."

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/06/2019 11:33:49:

… if it's a non-standard thread, or was made off-spec by worn/inaccurate tooling, what's the best way of making a nut to fit?

.

First: Measure it [much more accurately than any of us has done thus far]

'Know thine enemy'

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

It's certainly not 5BA, whose o.d. is very close to 1/8 inch.

(8BA is actually 0.126 " full diameter, and a lot of model designs specify 1/8 " dia rod for 5BA studs, so within tolerance.).

I still think 7BA but I'm surprised an 8BA nut will fit.

SO

7BA 0.098 " full dia, pitch 0.019" : 2.5 mm 0.48mm respectively.

8BA 0.087 full dia, pitch 0.017 " : 2.2 mm 0.43mm " "

Diameter measured: 0.085" (2.16mm)

Pitch from the photograph, very slightly <0.5mm

Inch values rounded to 3 dec. places from 4-figure tables. The sizes look odd because the full BA range is a metric geometrical series.

If it's none of what anyone's suggested it can only have been some non-standard thread of the maker's own.

Does anyone have a spare 7BA nut they can give, or a 7BA tap they can lend, to Nearly Done? (I might have a tap, but not a nut.)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 27/06/2019 12:44:23:

(8BA is actually 0.126 " full diameter,

.

I beg to differ, Nigel … but presumably that's a typo, and you meant 5BA

MichaelG.

.

Edit: What worries me most though is that there seems to be some confusion between metric pitch and tpi

… Back to the gardening now [pull weeds whilst the sun shines]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/06/2019 12:54:22

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thank you Michael.

Yes, my error.

FIVE BA is of 0.126 " diameter.

'

I quoted the Imperial sizes of BA threads to cater for measuring these parts in both, and directly from a text-book giving both scales in one table for the same reason.

BA is metric but so different from the ISO-M range only one or two sizes are vaguely close together, and then only by coincidence, not proper fit.

I wondered as an exercise if they could feasibly be screw-cut on my Imperial lathes. Using a spread-sheet (whose absolute reference function really comes into its own for such things), I managed to produce some fairly close change-wheel combinations for short threads before the cumulative pitch errors become too large. They'd still need finish-profiling by die,

'

I'm not yet gardening fit, and my lawn (using the term loosely) is becoming a hay-meadow with lots and lots of flowering grasses and their seed-heads. Managed to trim the front-garden buddleia yesterday, before its low-growing branches closed the pavement to anyone over three feet tall.

[Anonymous]

I'd agree with the OP and MG; the pitch is greater than 0.5mm, not less, at around 0.6mm. However, the thread is a mystery to me. Possibly a special by Fred in the toolroom?

Like MG I should be in the garden, but to hell with it; I'm going to knock out the rest of the traction engine frost spikes on the repetition lathe. It's going to take several proper workshop sessions to overcome the frustrations of the last two years at work. And to come to terms with being a member of the great unwashed, aka unemployed.

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This is insanely ambitious, but I wanted to play with another iOS App

[ the reference object length is, as before, 20mm on the rule ]

As Andrew suggests … Perhaps it is "Fred's special coarse"

MichaelG.

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Nearly done, just go for 8BA and I'm sure you will find it OK , I have made many parts for these reels over the years and never found anything other than BA or Whitworth threads on them. I just made a locking screw over the W/end for one 5/32 Whit LH. see photo.

The reason for the very small anomalies in the sizes is due to wear on the tools – taps and dies – most of these craftsmen as an apprentice purchased a die plate — you see heaps of them on the auction site, just a flat plate slightly egg shaped with die thread cut in, these were used to make the taps and in time became worn but because the parts fitted together it mattered not.

As a matter of interest Hardy [of Alnwick] vintage reels mostly have the initial or mark of the man who made it stamped inside thus if you needed a spare part or additional spool it would go back to the person who made it.

Just to recap I would make a new one and you may or may not know after the lock nut is fitted the top of the thread was very, very lightly riveted over so it could not be lost.

John

[Nearly DoneParticipant @nearlydone]

Thanks John.

I hoping you could be right, as the new 8BA nut made for me does go on for Almost two turns.

Im hoping running a 8BA die carefully down will clear it !! One is on its way from eBay.

That is a beautiful locking screw you have made there.

Ive been taking my time getting this reel working nicely and this is the last thing to finish it.

Inside Its stamped RB who I believe was Robert Borthwick who worked at Hardy's 1890 to 1920.

Gents Thanks for the replies.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JohnF on 27/06/2019 15:55:52:

Nearly done, just go for 8BA and I'm sure you will find it OK

.

… I stand corrected

I must be doing something terribly wrong with my measuring, as there is no way that I can make the pictured thread 59.1 tpi

MichaelG.

[ in the Dunce's Corner ]

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Michael, you may well be right from your expanded photo however the proof of the pudding etc, the best way is to hold an 8BA tap against the thread and use only the number of pitches the nut will have – not many they are quite short. Although I have never come across one it is worth noting that its very close to 3/32 x 48 BSF ???

It is most unlikely that the thread would have been anything but a "British standard" — used advisedly because of the time this reel was made — which would point to Whitworth, BSF to BA but I appreciate there were a great many threads used in various industries.

ND yes you are as far as I am aware correct about the initials RB

John

[Michael you can take the hat off ! ]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/06/2019 18:34:54:

Posted by JohnF on 27/06/2019 15:55:52:

Nearly done, just go for 8BA and I'm sure you will find it OK

.

… I stand corrected

I must be doing something terribly wrong with my measuring, as there is no way that I can make the pictured thread 59.1 tpi

MichaelG.

[ in the Dunce's Corner ]

Me too! I have a thread angle of about 80°; difficult to see that as 47.5° BA or 55° whitworth or even 60° metric

Time to take up knitting!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JohnF on 27/06/2019 20:36:58:

Michael, you may well be right from your expanded photo however …

[Michael you can take the hat off ! ]

.

Thanks for my rehabilitation, John

Whilst in the corner … I found this very comprehensive list of threads: **LINK**

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~bolo/workshop/thread.html

which is worth keeping for future reference.

MichaelG.

[Nearly DoneParticipant @nearlydone]

MG , silly.o.d

I don't think your wrong at all, Im not sure what this blooming thread is!!

But tomorrow I'll try and take a shot with that 60 deg gauge on on it just for comparison.

I do wonder if it's just odd ball, kind of 8BA but with less tpi

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/06/2019 21:42:11:

 

Whilst in the corner … I found this very comprehensive list of threads: **LINK**

 

Did you not see that on SoD's link on the first page of this thread, it is also one I have linked to several times in the past.

NG, more like 5BA with less diameter, possible to do with a two piece die as I said earlier which will also affect angle due to not clearing the helix. As it is just a brass nut it would not be too difficult to make a tap at the required pitch and diameter from silver steel and then use that to make a nut. Or what are the options for replacing teh make threaded part with a known thread and then making a matching nut?

Edited By JasonB on 28/06/2019 07:01:45

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 28/06/2019 06:57:39:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/06/2019 21:42:11:

 

Whilst in the corner … I found this very comprehensive list of threads: **LINK**

 

Did you not see that on SoD's link on the first page of this thread, it is also one I have linked to several times in the past.

.

Well of course I didn't, Jason … otherwise I wouldn't have posted it as a 'find'

MichaelG.

.

Edit: More strictly … yes I saw the link, but no I didn't follow it

I was more interested, at the time, in trying to measure the actual thread question.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 28/06/2019 07:18:51

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Note: I know almost nothing about the manufacturer; but it seems reasonable to assume that they had a lathe with screwcutting facility [either with change-wheels, or with a chasing device] … In which case it would be a simple matter for 'Fred' to screwcut 5BA pitch on a smaller diameter, and with any chosen profile.

MichaelG

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 28/06/2019 08:10:34

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes that would have a similar affect to the over tightened 2 piece die, maybe Fred was a bit lazy and did not bother to alter his gear train to suit different diameter screws.

Just need to come up with how he cut a matching nut unless he had home made taps

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 28/06/2019 08:20:41:

Yes that would have a similar affect to the over tightened 2 piece die, maybe Fred was a bit lazy and did not bother to alter his gear train to suit different diameter screws.

Just need to come up with how he cut a matching nut unless he had home made taps

.

I was actually thinking that in the case of this screw it was a deliberate 'fitness for purpose' decision, not laziness.

The BA thread-form is not particularly appropriate to an 'adjuster' … and we are discussing a high quality item.

[quote]

To begin with the brothers bought in most of the tackle they sold, their reels, for example, coming from Malloch. However, as the firm expanded, Hardys found themselves with a reputation for superior quality tackle to defend and realised that they could hardly continue to depend on products made by competitors, so in 1891, after three years of patient development, they launched a reel which became their most famous product, the Perfect. It was an instant success and the firm has built it, with occasional interruptions, right up to the present day, a feat that no other tackle manufacturer can even begin to challenge.

[/quote]

And yes; I feel sure that Fred, like any decent 'instrument maker' would have made custom taps.

MichaelG.

.

Ref. http://www.hardyfishing.com/Hardy-history.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 28/06/2019 08:33:05

[Nearly DoneParticipant @nearlydone]

Just want to say thanks for all the input on this thread.

I did manage to get the new nut to run down by gently using the first whit tap into it.

seems fine.

Its loctited on now so hopefully cannot be lost.

[Author]

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