5cc CI engine and diesel fuel

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Following the comments made regarding the ‘difficulty’ of obtaining diesel fuel on another thread I would not like to see anyone put off making any kind of diesel engine because of the supposed ‘lack of fuel’.

 

Speaking purely for the UK fuel is commercially available without any restrictions – as yet – to health and safety concerns but where the problem lies is in the fact that most engines now are glow ignition or as the modern parlance would have it ‘nitro engines’. These are now the mainstream kind of I/C motor for modelling use and the use of diesel engines has become a shadow of their former years. Consquently diesel fuel is very rarely stocked in most model shops (that sell fuel) of today.

 

Model Technics glo-fuels are readilly available in most model shops and they still produce diesel fuel in three mixes 1000, 2000 and 3000 in 1/2 litre, litre and 1/2 gallon quantities so – I would imagine – any model shop dealing with them could order some to accompany their usual order of glo-fuel. This company was indeed selling diesel fuel in the trade area at the recent model aircraft National Championships held over the Bank holiday.

 

At the Nationals there are still many people using diesel engines both for competition and sport flying so that alone should speak for the availabilty though it is fair to say that in all probability the competitors will have mixed their own in most cases. The ingredients – both for diesel and glo-fuel – can also be obtained without restriction from the model fuel suppliers but it is only worth pursuing if a reasonble quantity is called for or a mix different from that readilly available is desired.

 

To make an engine such as the Racer and run it for 5 min or so runs will require about 25cc . That will depend of course on size of prop/rpm and how rich/lean its run. How much to order then depends on how much you intend to run it and how.

Diesel fuel will keep for a long time without deteriorating – the first runs on the Etas recently built was carried out using fuel that was at least eight years old – but it is vitally important that the can is well sealed as the slightest leak will allow the ether to evaporate which will render it rather useless. When it’s decanted too try to keep the exposure to the surrounding air at a minimum and close the can and fuel bottle up immediately. And only pour out enough for immediate use – it is not a good idea to keep pouring back unused fuel into the can.

 

Of course the engine could be converted to glow plug ignition. The original was I believe available as such but there were not many made. When the Racer was in it’s heyday glo motors with their attendant batteries, wires, crocodile clips and glo plugs that forever burnt out weren’t quite as popular as the good old diesel

 

I hope this will go some way to putting the fuel situation in perspective – dont let it put you off building a diesel – the rewards are great for such a reasonably small amount of effort.

 

Regards – Ramon

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 07/09/2011 10:25:58

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

[adyParticipant @ady]

Well I bought the books(very interesting, fascinating stuff), got an old model diesel as an example, got a bunch of plans and have invested a lot of time hard cash and effort getting things set up for the rocky road ahead.

Went to the local model shop and the guy wasn’t remotely interested in selling me diesel fuel, now or ever.

 

Will stumble across some at some point no doubt but it’s non-stop hurdles nowadays.

Cant get metal from a scrappie now, ‘elf and safety

local engineering works wont give you any offcuts

“modelling” shop more interested in selling electric tomy toys and glows.

 

I’m not surprised that the hobby is going doon the swanney, even the so called modelling shops aren’t interested in lending a helping hand.

 

If I wasn’t so pig headed I would never have even got this far.

 

So the wee diesels are on the back burner, going to do other stuff.

Thank gawd I didn’t build one before looking for fuel, I would have been seriously hacked off if I had sweated blood over a hot lathe for weeks and then been unable to test my efforts out.

 

A glow version might be a good idea, at least the fuel is readily available.

 

Anyone want to buy an entire book of model diesel plans? lol

I’m sure I’ll get there eventually. grump over.

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

Ah Ady

Part of the problem is that people like you and I do not conform to the ‘Norm’. We do not go to the ‘Social Club’, we do not go to Bongo or whatever. We do not riot in the streets. We do not watch the slime they serve up on T.V. We therefore must be up to no good – probably as we make ‘things’ we could be terrorists.

The local city safety manager (£50,000 pa plus car and house) discovered that battery acid (Sulphuric acid) was used in the manufacture of Nitro Glycerine. She had a bye law passed which made it illegal to have or sell the stuff in the city unless you had special permission.

Safety people are concerned only with Safety. Anything which is ‘unsafe’ in any way must be prohibited. If some ‘goon’ were to stab another with a wooden pencil then pencils are dangerous and must be banned! Soon they will only let you have wax crayons. Their problem is what is the next thing which could get them (the Safety People) BLAMED for not having anticipated the problem.

Over here in Hungary they leave me strictly alone. Hungarian is a very difficult language to learn and most of them have a poor ha’path of English. Any way I am fairly fluent in the Cotswold dialect ‘ifen I took to usen’. (wanted to speak it)

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Ady,

 

I really am sorry to hear you are having this difficulty in obtaining fuel especially as you are obviously quite interested in building a small diesel.

 

Having spent so much time on this Racer article I feel a certain degree of responsibilty to offer help where I can particularly as I would not like to think that this situation will prevent not only yourself but possibly others from attempting to make such an engine – either this one or to other designs.

 

I feel I have explained the situation as I see it well enough above but have to confess that it has been a long time since I crossed the threshold of a model shop – to purchase ‘aero’– modelling goods – as most of what is required to build control line aerobatic models in the traditional manner has long ceased to be available in such places. Consequently much of my own ‘stock’ has been sourced – with a looking ahead perspective – from specialist suppliers by mail or, far more predominently, at model shows.

 

Now regarding fuel, there may be others but as far as I am aware at this point the only fuel suppliers that actually produce diesel fuel and/or the ingredients to make such are those previously mentioned – Model Technics or Southern Modelcraft.

 

From what I can establish I believe that Model Technics fuels are usually the choice of stock by most shops selling fuel but this may of course depend on which part of the country you live in. As already stated Southern MC fuel is only available at model shows and associated events like swapmeets.

 

This morning I have telephoned five different model shops throughout this area – all stock Model Technics fuel and four of the five confirmed that they can provide diesel fuel but do not stock it…………

 

Pegasus Models – Norwich – ” No problem, tell us what you want we will add it to our next order”

 

Model Zone – Norwich – Sells Model Technics fuels but cannot provide diesel as it does not feature on ‘Modelzone’ computerised ordering system

 

Anglia Models – Great Yarmouth – Same response as Pegasus

 

Model Junction – Bury St Edmunds – same again

 

Hobby Stores – Watton – Again, happy to order but they only place large fuel orders a couple of times a year.

 

I don’t know where you are placed in the country Ady but a call to Southern Modelcraft (01732 350691 – they do not have a website) to see where the nearest model event is to you that they are attending in the future might be a worthwhile exercise and likewise a few mins with Yellow Pages for your slightly more distant but never the less ‘local’ model shops to see if any of those stock MT fuels. SM fuel is very good quality and much cheaper than others

 

I hope this helps Ady and will go some way to ease your despondency – don’t throw those plans too far to the back of the bench as yet with a little perseverence you will get there in the end – of that I’m certain

 

Regards – Ramon

[adyParticipant @ady]

I will probably go back and have another go, try to get him to order some cans with his next fuel intake.

I live in the middle of nowhere, a small village called Edinburgh with about 400,000 people.

 

There’s a hurdle at every turn with this hobby nowadays, it’s unbelievable.

 

[AESParticipant @aes]

Ady,

 

Ramon has (I think we all agree) produced some superb example of model diesel engines, with excellent articles to enthuse the rest of us to have a go (me included). And he has even gone so far as help with suggested sources of fuel “off the shelf” – or should I say “ready mixed”!

 

I have a slightly different background to Ramon in as much as I’m still very much engaged with control contest models, primarily FAI Class F2C – in English that’s Team Racing (3 models in the same circle at the same time, racing against each other. At less than 15 secs for TEN laps, that’s fast n exiciting!.

 

But back to the point – have you thought of mixing your own fuel?

 

I am also different to Ramon in as much as I have live doutside UK for many years so have not really experienced the dreaded ” ‘elf n safety” at first hand. But I would have thought you could still buy the 3 basic ingredients you need to mix your own, namely paraffin, castor oil, and ether.

 

Where I live (Switzerland) there are also (many) rules n regs but I was able to get castor oil and ether from the local chemist – in Switz you need a special signature in the poisons book (for the ether) but the 1st time I went there wearing decent clothes but carrying a (deliberatelysmelly) engine, and using (deliberately mangled) Swiss-German. After 5 mins of “explanation” of what I wanted ether and castor oil for the poor lady’s eyes just glazed over and I got what I wanted. Now I just go back there and get the stuff 1st time, no probs.

 

Ady you want just the same ether that vets use (used to use?) for operating on animals, and only a small bottle (a half pint is enough) will do you fine. The castor oil should not be a problem either, especially since you can accept “any” non-medicinal castor oil as you’re not after out n out performance (i.e. high temps for quite long periods, like racers need).

 

For performance work I also needed IPN (Iso Propyl Nitrate) which I solved by the same route as the above chemist (poor lady!). But you don’t need IPN at all for “just” bench running or even for a little sport flying.

 

So if you can find a friendly chemist I think the above 2 ingredients problem can be solved.

 

Re paraffin, probably UK garages and hardware stores (like Swiss ones) no longer sell it (the days of Valor stoves are largely gone). But alternatives are easy – a gallon of car diesel fuel from the garage pump or some central heating oil will work perfectly well, again as you don’t need max performance (being a bloke who works with full-size aeroplanes, I use Avtur – jet engine fuel – where you do get max performance – sometimes).

 

So could I respectfully suggest you try something like the above wherever you live Ady? If you get the stuff I’ll tell you how to (safely) mix it into a perfectly workable (and SAFE for you and the engine) model diesel engine fuel.

 

Good luck

Krgds

AES

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi all,

I just had a look on the web to see if “Castrol R” which is castor oil based is still available and it is. A couple of years ago I found that one of our local DIY shops sold paraffin in 4 litre containers. (I needed some to clean all the shipping grease of my X3 mill.) When I was in my early teens in the mid 50’s I used to buy the ether at the local chemist but I doubt they will sell it these days. In those days the hardware shop used to sell the paraffin from a 45 gallon drum.

 

Les.

[AESParticipant @aes]

Les,

 

Are you SURE a “soft soap” approach to the local chemist won’t work any more? And if you have to sign a Poisons Register or something, is that such a big deal? Or as I said in my last post, has UK H&S really changed SO much since I finally left in the 1980’s?

 

Ether really is a MUST, so if a chemist won’t work I THINK you can order some from Medel Technics, the people Ramon was suggesting in his last post. Best bet would be to agree to pick it up from a contest that they’re visiting themselves near you – you can find a pretty extensive and well up to date Contest Calendar in every issue of “AMI” (Aviation Modeller International) which should appear in WH Smiths every month – I was on a short biz trip to UK last month and it was on the shelf OK (which is more than I can say for MEW!).

 

Re Castrol R, we can’t get it in Switz any more so I’d forgotten that sorry. If you can still get it in UK, great.

 

Again, best of luck Ady et al.

 

Krgds

AES

Edited By AES on 16/09/2011 15:41:12

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi AES.

I have not played with model diesel engines since my teens so I have not had any need to try to buy ether. In those days there was a shop in Liverpool that kids interested in chemistry used to go to to buy chemicals and test tubes etc. They would sell dilute sulphuric, nitric and hydrochloric acid to us. They would sell the concentrated acids to adults without any problem.

 

Les.

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi guy’s, Excellent input, just what this forum should be about. .

 

Just to put the ‘safety’ interference(?) into perspective a quick google resulted in

this which leads to this and this. There is also a link to a page on mixing fuels

 

With the price list further on one can only assume that if they are selling all this there are not a lot of safety restrictions per se to worry about and prevent you doing as AES suggests.

 

I haven’t made much reference to ‘mixing your own’ as it can be an expensive way of going about it if only a small quantity is required but as said above it’s quite a straightforward and safe process – well as long as you don’t have the ether can directly under your nostrils and one that is easilly carried out.

 

True IPN as you can see is quite expensive – the Southern Modelcraft equivalent ‘Ignition Improver’ is not, I believe, true IPN but works very well though probably may not be quite up to the standard required for F2c motors that AES is flying but as stated this is not absolutely essential though a motor like the Racer will run better with it.

 

Ady, if I have time before the article ends I will make and fit a glow head to one of the examples – can’t promise anything definite as I have quite a lot on at the moment but I will try.

 

Regards – Ramon

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 16/09/2011 17:16:16

[Flying FiferParticipant @flyingfifer]

ady,

That wee village you live in sounds like the place I was born in many many years ago. I`ve had a wee keek on the web & come up with a couple of addresses for you. Ok only one is in Edinburgh, the other is in Livingstone & the third is ower the brig in Fife.

Last one first : Glenrothes Model Flying Club Sec. Alan Gibson 01592 592265 .

287 (4th Edinburgh) Squadron Air Training Corps just of the Gorgie Road They have a website – see later.

West Calder & District MFC Sec. Tom Laird tom.laird@wolfsonmicro.com

try http://www.clubbz.com for more info.

 

All this talk about brewing your own certainly takes me back in time, winchester bottle of ether 28 shillings out of local chemist, Castrol R & a gallon of paraffin. Mixed 1/3rd of each for running in then play about with less oil & more of the others for higher revs etc. Then wee touch of Amyl nitrate (same chemist) for more oomph. Happy days indeed.

 

Do you remember the Scotia model Shop in Chambers St. right next to the Museum??

Best regards Alan

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I have had a look at our ‘Licence’ from customs and Excises for the purchase and retention of the Diethyl Ether.

We obtained it from:-

 

HM Customs & Excise. Advice Center.

Warwick House

Redhill

Surrey

RH1 1QU

0845 199199 fax 01737 73465

 

This applies, Alcohol Liquor Duties act. Sect. 77

 

What I would do if I was applying, I would detail what you want it for and that you would like to hold say 5ltr. Whatever.

As long as you have the Customs stamped letter, it authorises you to buy the item as and when.

As regards Amyl Nitrate, I am sure if you went to a chemist with the engine and other details you would be able to buy a small qty at his discretion.

Mainly be quite open about what you want to do and how.

Do not buy through a large chemist like Boots, rather a smaller chemist and the overheads will be less or deal direct with the main factor for the ether.

Remember, ‘Everything is allowed unless it is forbidden’

 

Clive

 

[Dougie SwanParticipant @dougieswan43463]

If obtaining ether is a problem then try ” easy start ” the stuff you use to start reluctant engines in the cold

I’ts possible to spray the stuff, carefully, remember the elfins, into a container and you get the ether

Dougie

[AESParticipant @aes]

Clive, Dougie, & all,

 

Sorry for delayed response, I’m currently working overseas n get only intermittent I’net access.

 

Re the ether, that should work fine by the sound of things – 5 ltrs should be more than enough*

 

Re the Amyl Nitrate (there’s also Amyl Nitrite – “the same but different” – I’m no chemist). It may be apocryphal but I believe you can’t get it anywhere on the “open” market because it’s a highly agressive heart stimulant (so I heard). That’s why “we” changed to IPN, but as said in an earlier post ,personally I don’t believe you need any of those 3 at all. As said, I’m definitely not a chemist/fuel technologist but I believe that the only purpose of Amyl (either of them) or IPN is to act as an anti-knock additive, a bit like lead in petrol. Unless you’re going to be running at max performance for a long time (high compression settings n therefore high temps) I really don’t think you need any of those for “general” running n “sport” flying.

 

Re “Easy start”, Dougie is right – there’s also stuff that is added to vehicle diesel fuel to stop freezing in cold climates – if you can get it in UK. It works OK, not as good as ether, but “OK” if you increase the %age in your mix – probably to 35 or even 40%.

 

At risk of “teaching my Grandmother/s”, please remember that the ether (or whatever) is only there in the mix to make a fuel “explosive” enough so that it starts in the first place & continues running – ether actually adds nothing at all to the power you get out of your fuel/engine combination.

 

For contest team racing we’ll try to get the ether down to about 15% (so we can get more paraffin into the fuel, so getting max possible performance). But again, for bench running n sport flying it’s not a problem to increase ether (or whatever) and reduce paraffin.

 

Finally, a while back Ramon said that “brewing your own” is more expensive (certainly in small quantities). He’s right. The only reason I mentioned it at all is if Ady (or whomever) really can’t get ready mixed fuel The only reason racers do it is for performance.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Krgds

AES

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Guy’s, AES has to my mind totally summed this up though personally I do prefer to use an ‘improver’ as compared to ‘straight fuel’ but as he says straight will work and work reasonably well, certainly for bench running.

 

Regarding Amy Nitrate – I did what Clive suggests back around the earlie nineties. I went to a long established high street independant chemist in Lowestoft armed with info on fuels and a ‘Can you please help me attitude’. It certainly worked and the chemist was very appreciative, interested and more than helpful providing me with a small 100ml bottle of Amyl Nitrate. I already had ether and castor bought then from a local model shop. I am pretty sure this was Model Technics but can’t be absolutely certain but yes -the paraffin was still available from a pump at a local garage at that time. (Now the only place seems to be garden centres – 4 litres for an arm and a leg)

 

Sometime later once this was used I went back for some more but this time he was less than helpful infact totally the opposite and more or less indicated that it should never have been sold it to me originally. Pleasant but firm I suppose you could say. I even offered to take premixed fuel in for him to put it in but he even declined this too. I also tried several other chemists in the immediate area but with the same outcome. Grapevine maybe?

 

Shortly after this I began flying at Oakington for awhile where someone had a good supply of IPN and the availability of this solved the problem for some time to come.

Since that supply has now gone, as I think I said before I have used Southern’s ‘Ignition Improver’ which works fine.

 

I’ve heard of using decanted Easy Start before – I don’t know what the quality of the ether is nor the actual volume in such an aerosol but I’m pretty certain it would prove an horrendously expensive way of going about things however as ‘they’ say “Owt’s better than N’owt int crisis”

 

Several years ago after a firm decision to stick to flying control line aerobatics only I parted with everything thing ‘team race’ that I had collected. Included in that lot was two 2-1/2 litre bottles of ether, about the same of castor and the carefully squirreled away remaining IPN. Hindsight eh

 

Regards – Ramon

 

PS Despite this doom and gloom over fuel theres a new engine in the pipeline – diesel of course

 

 

 

 

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Up here in Australia it can be a challenge getting the components for diesel fuel, however it can be done.

The big one of course is ether. Here in Adelaide we have at least two places, however one is three times the cost of the other!! Both are chemical supply concerns.

Kero/paraffin, the favourite used to be the locally packaged blue dyed stuff available in hardware stores, but they changed suppliers recently and the current stuff is unreliable. So I got some jet fuel!! At the local airfield locate the fuel supplier and get JetA1, its generally cheaper than the hardware store stuff and of a uniform quality. You do need to take your own bucket though.

Oil….Castrol M from the local Castrol agent

Ignition improver, where we used to use Amyl Nitrate/nitrite, nowadays they are replaced by IPN (Iso Propyl Nitrate???) which is VERY expensive (approx $110 per 500ml, but it does last a long time!!). However a few years ago I lucked into an alternative…..Amsoil Cetane Booster, about $15 per 300 odd ml. Google “Amsoil Cetane Booster” to discover your local supplier. F2C Team Racers may be able to detect the difference between IPN and Amsoil, but normal users will not detect a difference.

There we are, its all available if you hunt around, at least here in the wide brown land.

Your ETAs are beautiful Ramon!! Keep up the good work.

cheers

Bill Pudney

Adelaide, Australia

 

 

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

For ether there is engine start aerosol, it actually does not have a very high ether percentage, but will work for low performance running. Put the can in the fridge for a while, then spray into a container. Ian S C

[adyParticipant @ady]

That’s the approach I was going to use.

There’s also propane/ butane and heptane in that stuff, one “boils off” while heptane has a higher boiling point of 98 degrees C

I was also going to add some DERV and a bit of engine oil.

 

Anybody know what heptane will do in a model diesel engine?

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Ady,

I don’t know if this will help but many years ago in the Aeromodeller magazine there was an article about making ‘etherless’ fuel by someone called Robert (possibly Bob) Dulake. If I remember correctly the main basis was cooking oiland I think he did need a fuel containing ether for the initial exhaust prime to get it running but apparently his engine ran well on his ‘magic brew’

 

I have no idea which issue it was but there are many copies of the magazine available for free down load.

 

A posting on the Barton Control line Forum site should probably get a swift response

(I have just looked – the site appears to be down at the moment which is very unusual) to help you locate it if you decide to.

 

Keep us posted on your alchemy – success or not

 

Regards – Ramon

 

PS Just tried a quick google of his name – this will get some indications – his article was apparently in the Jan 86 issue of Aeromodeller

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 22/09/2011 12:42:03

[Richard MarksParticipant @richardmarks80868]

Gentlemen

If you look up a site on google called Miniature Engine Fuels It contains a lot of stuff about different fuels, unable to link to it or add it to my post.

 

Dick

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

Some info on “Youtube” see Model Diesel Engine running on vegetable oil.

 

http://youtu.be/3g0ri5kiRkM

[Author]

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