5C collet chuck with integral DI-3 backplate,anyone bought one?

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Just been looking at 5C collet chucks online and when visiting the Warco site to see about a DI-3 backplate to suit, I see they do a chuck with an integral backplate, I wondered if anyone had tried one. In principle it seems a good idea with reduced overhang, but would remove as far as I can work out the ability to tweak the chuck on its backplate. I couldn't find any reviews of the integral backplate ones online.

Having had great problems finding a decent DI-3 backplate in the past for my old Bantam, I found that Warco's were very good and fitted straight out of the box unlike some others! Sadly Warco are out of stock of separate backplates at present.

I'd be interested in anyones experiences please.

Thanks

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 13/04/2021 16:41:48

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Have you tried rota grip? That's where I plan on getting a Pratt D1-3 backplate for my lathe in the near future.

I also enquired about an integrated D1-3 er40 chuck recently, I was told by the supplier the tolerance for runout is 0.025mm, I decided to go down the backplate route as it will give minor adjustment.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi Pete

I've used Rotagrip many times, but the P-B backplates are finish machined to suit P-B chucks, and a Bison part machined backplate was over £200! They do a TOS backplate at a more reasonable price but didn't have any stock when I enquired. The Warco ones fitted very well and were nicely finished and at a very reasonable price I'm quite happy to wait for them to restock if I decide to go down the separate backplate route.

I just like the idea of an integral backplate to reduce overhang, I've got an ER32 chuck for the lathe which is fine but find it a bit awkward , but that's probably just me. I've used 5C collets in industry and like them a lot, Mainly I only build locomotives, and will be using imported collets so not expecting miracles of accuracy.

Given the low prices for some of the imported equipment i've bought over the years ( mainly from established suppliers) I've generally been most impressed with the finish and accuracy.

Dave

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I have both a d1-3 “nosepiece” and an internal sleeve for 5c for my CVA.

I usually use the sleeve as it’s direct in the taper, and the drawtube is a little shorter.

Thats useful because there is a wall just to the left of the lathe headstock.

Ill grab a couple pics later. I don’t remember there being any noticeable accuracy difference

Dave

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Perhaps not quite relevant, but I have 3 5C 125mm chucks – all D1-4taper, one is a BISON adjustable, very good indeed- one is a ROHM, non adjustable, also very good, runout in the collet nose is less than 0.005mm, and one is a Chinese Special – not good on runout, more than 0.04mm in the collet nose when fitted to a machined in place backplate. I use it on the rotary table with a custom 'set-true' arrangement, else its not worth it. Nicely made and very smooth operation, but thats not all that counts.

FWIW..

Joe

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On the other hand my £20 Warco "customer reject" 5C on a backplate that I machined gives 0.01mm in the collet nose and only just over that with imported collets. And that's running on a Chinese lathe.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Jason

I'd be more than pleased with that!

I did read your post on that, I think thats decided me to go with the separate backplate to give a degree of adjustment.

Dave

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by Dave S on 14/04/2021 08:43:38:

I usually use the sleeve as it’s direct in the taper, and the drawtube is a little shorter.

But you can only use 5C in-spindle if the spindle taper will accommodate it.

If you happen to have a D1-3 with a 4 Morse taper, which is how I believe the Bantam is offered, it is too small. It is why 4 1/2 Morse was added to the range as it is the smallest that will accommodate 5C.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I have just realised that collet chuck means scroll chuck like tightening.

Both my collet chucks are really collet adaptors.

The CVA is an uncommon Jarno taper IIRC.

The one which came with the lathe:

This would only work if you can get 5c into the headstock taper.

This one:

I acquired from John Stevenson when he scrapped out his CVA.

is D1-3 and I think would work as long as you can get the drawtube through.
I haven’t measured the runout on either, but both do work good enough for my needs.

Dave

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Dave, if it makes any difference, RDbarret have the Pratt 125mm machined backplate for £105+tax Here

Joe, that's interesting, 5c did interest me but overall it is the more costly option, which of the ROHM and Bison do you prefer? Would you mind telling their prices?

Not sure I can justify the cost at present but would be good to have a rough idea of cost.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Pete. on 14/04/2021 20:26:55:

Joe, that's interesting, 5c did interest me but overall it is the more costly option, which of the ROHM and Bison do you prefer? Would you mind telling their prices?

Not sure I can justify the cost at present but would be good to have a rough idea of cost.

Pete, was not cheap…The Bison was bought with the 14D lathe from EMCO at the time.

The Bison (P/N 3960) with Din 55029/4 mount was R34K , about 1,700.00 BP , in 2017.

The ROHM with Din 55029/4 mount was R39K, abt 1,950.00 BP, but thats not what I paid..

I ontained the ROHM due to an 80% discount (!), since with the lathe they delivered a badly damaged BISON chuck and were unable to supply a replacement at that stage for more than 2 months. So they offered me a in-stock non-adjustable ROHM 5C for a song to tide me over..

Joe

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Thanks for that Joe, you can't expect good quality kit for peanuts, the people making it after all do expect a fair wage, but for what is essentially a hobby, I don't think I could justify that much.

I saw an installation video on YouTube of an er40 lathe Chuck from Arc euro, he seemed to get the inner bore running to no discernable runout, so I'll probably go that route with a good quality back plate, after all the whole point is repeatable accurate convenience, so a good D1-3 backplate should be worthwhile.

As I have already a reasonable set of er40 collets, possibly buying a set of 5um fahrion er40 collets, making an er40 collet chuck to fit on the back end of the spindle, then with 2 sets of collets with some oversized collets, being able to hold up to 32mm bar at both ends of the spindle, this would allow me to quickly work on the ends of bar up to maybe 24"/600mm without the need for steady rests, just a thought.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Decision made today, couldn't find any feedback online about the integral backplate chucks, good or bad so have gone for a separate backplate. I ordered a set of collets and a part finished backplate from Gloster Tooling and the collet chuck from ARC, both suppliers I have had very positive experiences with in the past.

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Thought I would leave some feedback on how I got on with the 5C collet chuck as members were kind enough to reply to my original question, I often wonder how some of the information requests on here play out.

The DI-3 backplate from Gloster tooling fitted perfectly out of the box, lightly bluing the spindle taper and mating face showed good contact, and some tests with a DTI showed it went back the same every time. The Collet chuck from ARC was very nicely finished and the collets fit well and it operates smoothly, fitting to the backplate with the register machined very slightly undersize allowed me to adjust until there was no runout of the internal taper indicated on my best DTI (.0005" graduations).

The collets also from Gloster also showed very little runout, I didn't have enough sizes of nicely ground bars to test all of them but all the more common sizes I tested were less than .0005" most much less. Overall I'm delighted with the setup, hope this is of use to anyone considering something similar.

 

Edited for the missing zero!!!!

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 21/04/2021 17:51:08

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Do you mean .0005" [1/2 thousandths"] or .005" [5 thousandths"]?

Tony

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi Tony

Missing zero added, don't usualy need to worry about that many zero's after the decimal point!

Dave

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Dave, thanks for letting us know the results, it hasn't helped though, I'd all but ruled out a cheaper 5c chuck, now I'm on the fence again, it does seem to make sense for a lathe.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Do remember you will need a separate 5C collet for each nominal size, up to 64 to get to 1" are available, not sure about metric? The ER series is more flexible in my opinion.

Tony

[lfoggyParticipant @lfoggy]

I recently purchased a very similar setup for my Myford 254 which has a D1-3 camlock mount. I went for a Bison 5C chuck and Bison backplate with a set of metric collets. Chuck fitted straight on the backplate and, once the mounting screws were evenly tightened, the accuracy was good. Radial runout on the tapered part of the chuck is barely discernible using a gauge with a resolution of 0.01mm so probably less than 0.005mm. And its very consistent when the chuck is removed and refitted to the spindle nose. The Bison collets are good too and radial runout of test bars is around 0.01mm near the chuck and 0.02mm 5cm from the chuck. All better than expected really….

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Thank you both for the input, 5c is the more refined option, but as I already have an er40 collet set, and would need a backplate for either, the er40 way would only require the actual chuck, I could reuse the backplate in the future if needed, I'll probably get an er40 from Arc as previously said, a guy on yt installed one with good results.

[Diy AddictParticipant @diyaddict]

I know I'm late to the party, but having read this thread, I eventually ordered the Warco 5c chuck with built-in D1-3, with the intention of adding a back plate if runout was bad. Well the one I recieved had a runout of more than 0.002" on the inside tapered part of the chuck – much higher than I'd hoped.

I tried a couple of positions and made sure all the mating surfaces were spotless, but just couldn't get lower than 2 thou.

I thought about returning it but I can't resist a tinker, so took it apart. The front separates from the back at the hole for the chuck key.

The rear part has an alignment ring ground into it. So it was an easy job to mount it directly on the lathe and turn the ring down slightly:

I took 0.005" off it, to give a bit of wiggle room for future adjustment. During this process, I found that the inner ring with the through bore was out of true by a lot more than 2 thou – nearer 20 thou – so I turned that to be true to help balance the chuck.

Stuck it back together and a bit of judicious use of the rubber mallet, and now the runout is down to a couple of tenths. I'm thinking of putting some threaded holes in the front part and some grub screws to make the runout adjustable with a hex key. There's not a lot of room for error though, as the alignment ring doesn't project that much.

I haven't yet measured the runout with a collet installed, so I'm not sure how good it will be a couple of inches from the chuck.

If I could justify the expense of a Bison, I'd definitely go down that route, but the Warco one now suits my needs, and at least it's possible to fettle it.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Thanks for the post about the collet chuck. I was thinking that it could be held together , like a griptrue backplate does. I was also thinking that 3 screws could be installed , and where the screws meet the lip /flange area, the load could be spread by cutting a flat and then adding some pads to those areas. Then it will be like adjusting a griptrue.

If you can get 4 places it will be quicker to adjust and be just like a 4jaw when using 2 keys. I think M5 would be a good size to use and 0.8mm pitch is fine enough to get the adjustment needed. Not the same as the tapered key that is used in a grip true though. If finer adjustments are needed could use M5 or M6 X 0.5mm threads and make the screws needed.

I have an Optimum one arriving this week. I will take it apart and check the inner taper etc to the body and the rear register at the key part line. Mine is going onto a S7 and also onto a Chinese lathe that I have that takes the 3 bolt mount and a tapered register. So will make a Myford adapter for that lathe to take all the Myford chucks and backplates etc. The only difference is that the adapter will have a locking system of a piece of nylon cord in a slot to make it like a Nylock nut. Have made them before using 2mm and 3mm line trimmer nylon.

I may just be doing this mod to my one as well. I do like the adjustability of the system though. It will mean that the average collets can be used with really good precision if needed.

Thanks again.

Neil

[Diy AddictParticipant @diyaddict]

Hi Neil, I did indeed end up putting three grub screws in. I think I had to use smaller than M5 – M4 or maybe even M3 , since the alignment ring doesn't protrude that much. It works a treat, though if I did it again, I'd use four screws for reasons you've mentioned.

However, I rarely use it now, as a Bison came up at an auction (with a load of collets)

All the best, Paul

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Mine arrived today. Took it apart, cleaned and deburred. To my surprise , the back half is just as hard as the front half. So gor me it will be a loose fit and tgen gental taps to get whst ever collet I'm using to run true. Its very smooth to rotate and I aligned both of tje dockets to be in the same situation.

Neil

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