5 CC CI engine (and a bit of a Grump)

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5 CC CI engine (and a bit of a Grump)

This topic has 41 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 30 October 2011 at 20:56 by Sub Mandrel.

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6 September 2011 at 17:03 #2310
Richard Parsons
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@richardparsons61721
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6 September 2011 at 17:03 #74569
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
David,

I am about not only throw all my toys out of my pram, but the covers and .everything else.

I am following the construction series on the 5 cc CI engine which started in M.E. Vol 207 No 4411. After reading it all I could have done nothing. The reason is the machining instructions say “The first operation is bring the blocks square and to the external dimensions plus 0.5mm”. The second part of the series in No 4412 continues in the same vein. I still do not know ANY of the finished dimensions. So I have no way of starting the project until the end of September.

The only information I have is the scaling factor 1.266:1 over the ED 2.49 Racer engine it is derived from

Rgds

Dick
6 September 2011 at 17:13 #74574
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I’m actually wondering if there will be any drawings or is it going to be along the same lines of the X2 V8? would be nice if there were though.

J
6 September 2011 at 18:04 #74577
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Okay guy’s, take it easy – as they say in the Army ‘Don’t anticipate the word of command’

I have spent a long time working on this article. Certainly more hours were spent on it than the actual machining. It includes a series of photographs of all operations, what I trust will be seen as a descriptive text to accompany them and a complete set of drawings.

The original drawings were done in pencil but over the last year I have learnt Autocad sufficient to do 2D drawings and sent David a full set covering all components at the same time as the text and images. I believe they have to be sent to an illustrator before they can be published.

Dick, I am as disappointed as you to realise they are not as yet accompanying the text (I have not seen the latest issue yet) however there must be a good reason. David has been very unwell don’t forget and this may have something to do with it.

If you check the table of contents in issue 4411 you will see David does say that a full set of drawings will acompany the article.

What I will say Dick is before you get too grumpy if you really would like to see the drawings I will willingly send you them as PDFs but that’s it folks everyone else will have to be patient.

You know theres been a lot of criticism of late about content – when I think of the time that was spent in producing this it is little wonder people ‘come back for more’ and repeat the exercise – time is short and mines running out – I’m getting old too

Regards – Ramon

PS have just had a look to see if I could include a drawing here but think I’ll probably need to save it elsewhere first – I’ll try later

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 06/09/2011 18:08:31
6 September 2011 at 18:35 #74580
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Thanks Ramon, to be fair to David the General Arrangement drawing is included in 4412, this combined with the photos you have already posted here and linked to in your other thread should just about allow anyone to workout what materials are required so they can be ordered in.

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 06/09/2011 18:36:35
6 September 2011 at 19:52 #74587
Speedy Builder5
Participant
@speedybuilder5
OK, this may be little premature, but what fuel do you run these ere diesels on. When I were a lad, you could buy it, but it seems near impossible to get it now. I live in France, and supply is even worse. Sometimes we would mix equal measures of Ether,Parafin and castor oil, a bit messy but it worked. If you ask for ether at the chemist, they look at you gone out. Any suggestions ??
6 September 2011 at 19:59 #74588
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Several of the RC fuel makers do Diesel mixes.

J
6 September 2011 at 20:37 #74592
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Hi Jason,

Yes I agree, like most things I’m sure there’s a good reason for everything .

Perhaps a little more is in order ………….

I did speak with David before the first part was published and he explained to me the need for the drawings to have to go to the illustrator despite the fact that they were reasonably drawn. I believe it’s to do with layout.

When I did the article on the Nova engine I just described it’s building – it was never intended to be a construction article however I recall responding to you then Dick regarding drawings and their apparent ommission. You also raised the very valid point that I had not given the bore/stroke/capacity details and I emailed David straight away to ask that that could be put right in the second part. Unfortunately that was too late, the second part had already been ‘put to bed’.

You may be pleased to hear though that I did bear your comment in mind for the Racer article and at the top of page one as submitted there is a small box containing those details. For whatever reason that has been ommitted – beyond my control I’m afraid.

I can say that though David tried hard to get this in 4411 – there was a problem with some image files which was dealt with with little time to spare so, knowing those problems, I was very pleased to see the way in which the first part was laid out .

I’m sure she won’t mind if I say but Diane and I were corresponding over the same issue (image files) around eleven last night. Having asked for some the files in the afternoon I was not able to send them till late last night. I was most surprised to get an immediate response – Diane was still working on part three!

I’ve mentioned this purely to show the other side of the coin so to speak – I have no vested interest in ME just some one with two articles published.

I have had a go at attempting to transfer a cad file with no luck so have had to go through the scanning route for you. I don’t intend to pre-empt coming installments but this ‘one time’ should give you what you need for the crankcase. It will also show the drawings done, should there be a difference, relative which those which will hopefully appear in the magazine in due course.

I do hope this will help quell your disapointment Dick (and help you keep a good grip on yer teddy) as I certainly don’t wish to see anyone get upset as a result of something I’ve done.

Very best regards – Ramon
6 September 2011 at 20:42 #74593
ady
Participant
@ady
You can’t get hold of the stuff because of the ether.

I don’t know of anywhere in Scotland who will admit to stocking it now.

Apparently bad boys use it to manufacturer drugs like crystal meth.

Maybe a modelling club could help, if you became a member.

There may also be some sneaky routes which you will have to suss out yourself and then you will have to mix your own.

I’m not even going to say what it is because I know of zero legal alternatives, they’ve killed the entire market for obtaining model diesel fuel where I’m at.

Because of the huge virtually unique explosive range of ether there are no easy substitutes either.

So if you want to run it after completion you’d better suss out the fuel situation first, or you may find you’ve just spent six months creating a beautifully engineered paperweight.

…can’t walk into a scrapyard and buy a thumb sized bit of metal…can’t buy model diesel fuel…

It’s all for our own safety though comrades.

The Government loves us and wants us to be safe.

Edited By ady on 06/09/2011 21:04:51
6 September 2011 at 21:09 #74595
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Hi Robert,

We have dealt with this problem (obtaining diesel fuel in France that is) somewhere else on here before though I’m not sure exactly where

Jason is right – The two main suppliers over here (that I’m aware of) are Model Technics and Southern Modelcraft. The latter is a small business but attends all the regular model aircraft shows and are based in Kent. I have used their fuel for many years both glow and diesel and can thoroughly recommend their quality – usual disclaimer of course. They also sell the separate ingredients that you name as well.

As you say model diesel fuel is traditionally a mixture of ether, paraffin and castor oil but the proportions vary depending on the type of use the engine is put too. Equal proportions are fine for vintage side port long strokes but the oil content reduces and the paraffin increases as performance is required. The addition of an ignition improver to prevent pre-detonation is also required for higher performance motors too. Traditionally this used to be Amy-Nitrate or Nitrite but try asking for that in a chemist these days!

As far as I’m aware there are plenty of model flyers still active in France – team race is still popular and most of those will be diesel powered so it should be available over there somewhere. You could try a posting on the Barton Control Line Forum (google will get you there okay though you may have to register) where there are several ex pat flyers living in France.

Good luck or should that be Bon Chance

Regards – Ramon
6 September 2011 at 21:43 #74598
Diane Carney
Moderator
@dianecarney30678
The crankcase drawing is in Issue 4413, on sale 23 September.

Diane
6 September 2011 at 21:55 #74600
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
Ether is available commercially, we use it at work for cleaning optics.

We also use Wood Alchohol/Industrial Meths. Of course this is all controlled but by obtaining a licence from Customs and Excise you can then buy it from several suppliers.

I will look on Thurs. to see what the form number is.

If you show interest I will find out from our girl friday which company we use.

It will be expensive as it comes in 5Ltr.bottles.

Here it would pay you to get a group together and share the cost.

Further to this, the company we get it from supply all these items as Reagents and may also supply Amyl Nitrate.

Let me follow through and see what I can find out about it all.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 06/09/2011 21:56:24
6 September 2011 at 22:29 #74601
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Hi Clive,

I am well stocked with diesel fuel as I have just bought some from Southern Modelcraft at the Nationals. £15 for a half gallon – three years ago it was £10.50, last year £12. That’s still a lot cheaper than another supplier but the big drawback with SM is that as far as I know it’s not available through the normal retail outlets hence the need to get it at shows (and squirrel it away). A few years back a modelling friend approached them for a bulk order with the intention of doing so through a local shop but that was not possible – they were quite happy at that time however to allow us to collect it from their premises though that was never followed up.

As said they supply ether – I think the cost was also £15 for half a gallon – and they do an’ignition improver’ too but it definitely isn’t AM. Their diesel comes in two versions – ‘Sport’ and ‘High Performance’. Without checking the cans I can’t recall the exact difference but the latter has less oil and ether content.

The Racers so far have been run on their Sport mix which has been fine.

I hope to be able to give them some lengthy running at the forthcoming Forncett Steam Museum ME Day and have bought some of the High Perf mix to see how that goes too.

Regards – Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 06/09/2011 22:32:02
7 September 2011 at 05:10 #74605
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
When I saw Part 1 of your article in ME 4411 I wandered down to the local ‘Patica’ Hungarian for apothecary –Dispensing Chemist to you and me-. I secured 25 grams of Ether. Once I had done that I started to review my metal stocks. Aluminium enough but only 50mm thick but I have a chunk of 125mm thick but what it is I am not certain. My only problem may be the length of 35-40mm steel for the crank and cylinder liner. I will not start on a project until I have everything I will need under lock and key to stop it from going ‘walkabout’.

When you can find steel (which at the moment is as rare as hen’s teeth in Hungary) it tends to be what I would classify as for ‘Cattle pen fittings Only’. I was making a special bolt for an old Briggs and Stratton (all UNC and UNF, and not a Millimetre in sight). I machined a lump of 25mm which was going to be turned down to make the 3/8” bolt. I had reducer the diameter to about ¾” dia when the thing fell in half. A dirty great ‘flaw’ in the metal. That was NBG. Actually much of the old ex Russian army junk around here uses UNC/UNF. The Hungarians are a funny lot. My neighbour was grumbling about having to replace the hinges on his gate – until I oiled them.

Thanks for the drawings of the crankcase. Now I know what I will want

So Teddy is safe -for the moment-.
7 September 2011 at 07:59 #74606
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
ED Racer and Nova

Hi there

I think the problem with the drawings was they were not referenced in the text hence were not included when needed.

All the drawings will be published, this is a superb little engine and continues our quest to put the best I/C engine designs into Model Engineer.

Regarding the Nova, this was different. It was a copy of a design that appeared in another magazine many years ago. Even though I think that magazine was defunct, we did not own the copyright and could not publish the drawings.

It took me five minutes to find and purchase a set on Ebay.

regards David
7 September 2011 at 11:52 #74616
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
If youcan’t get ether any other way, perhaps buy a can of engine starting spray. Ian S C
7 September 2011 at 16:24 #74631
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Hi David, That’s my fault obviously but I assumed the drawings would just ‘fit’ in with the relevant description of the specific part(s) Must try better next time – next time? he said -next time????

Regarding mistakes – possible ones that is. Given various postings on here recently I would say that I checked the drawings over and over to the point of paranoia before sending them. I just know though something will have slipped through – Sod’s Law after all.

If any one is not sure about something or a mistake is spotted a quick post on here for clarification/help or an ammendment will get an immediate response.

Ady, I have put a new thread up regarding the fuel issue. I assure you, it’s procurement is nowhere as bleak as you assume but I agree you do have to search it out.

Regards – Ramon
7 September 2011 at 16:42 #74634
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Well only as you asked Ramon.

A far as I can see the two engine mounts do not have a length to them, just the hole centres. Not a critical dimension and I’m sure people making the engine could proportion the part

Otherwise its a good usable drawing, just hope nothing is lost in the graphic design department. Such as making the general arrangement just a fraction less than full size so it fits the ME page when it would still have fitted if the table and timing diagram were sqeezed up a bit.

J

Edited By JasonB on 07/09/2011 16:44:08
7 September 2011 at 18:13 #74643
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Ah Jason – just as I thought – I just knew I would miss something

The rear of the mounting lug is 1.5mm forward of the rear of the crankcase and the length is 27.0

Original drawing is now updated – keep ’em coming

Can’t comment on the GA as yet as I haven’t seen it so far – have to wait until Friday.

Regards – Ramon
6 October 2011 at 12:37 #75896
Macd29
Participant
@macd29
Hi Ramon,

As you are updating the drawing of the 5.00cc IC engine what are the measurements for the thickness of the engine mounts? Will you be posting the revised drawing for reference.

Regards John
6 October 2011 at 13:09 #75898
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
And while you are at it Ramon the rotor disc does not have the angular positions for the recess in the latest issue

J
6 October 2011 at 14:04 #75905
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Hi John, Jason,

One can understand why draughtsmen had ‘checkers’ – despite looking at the crankcase drawing and updating the length and position I still missed the thickness.

It’s 4.5mm John and yes I will post any updates on here.

Thanks for pointing out the ommision on the rotor disc too Jason. Again, I checked this drawing the other night and noticed the width of the backplate as 34.5 – it should of course be the same as its height – 34.8.

The lower angle is 35 degrees from the vertical and the upper angle is 20 degrees from the horizontal. This is just a pocket for lightness and a degree of balance – the actual dimensions are not particularly critical. The inlet cut out itself is 90 degrees which should be as accurate as possible as this and the pocket in the backplate itself is what defines the inlet timing.

I have just noticed another small anomaly. The inlet cut out is shown with a sharp corner at the top and a radius at the bottom. This should have radii on both corners – the original was cut with a 3mm cutter

I hope that those who may feel this should have been a bit more accurate will take into allowance that these were my first attempts using Autocad having used nowt but a pencil afore. Not an excuse, but the circumstance.

Original drawings are duly updated.

Hope this helps John – are you cutting yet?

Regards – Ramon
6 October 2011 at 23:42 #75921
Ramon Wilson
Participant
@ramonwilson3
Here are the updated Crankcase and Backplate drawings – all updates in red

For some reason the scanner has not picked up the borders but no information has been missed

I believe the future instalments have already been dealt with – so any further errors, and I have found one or two – no doubt Jason’s keen eye will spot any others missed – will be updated as they appear.

This reminds me that several years ago during the period I was working on press tools we had a designer – ‘RJJ’ – who was (in)famous for his mistakes. He would swiftly run a pen through – no cad then – and with a dismissive flourish hand you the drawing back with a well versed “Sorry about that”. It soon became a catch phrase in the tool room and we had a rubber stamp made with the legend ‘A genuine RJJ ‘Sorry about that’.

Great delight was taken to ensure drawings were duly stamped ‘when required’ and though he gave the impression he was taking it in good fun it obviously irritated. We all thought it hilarious of course but it was rather short lived as despite his ferret like but unsuccessful searching for it for several days he suddenly came upon it by chance when one of us in a lax moment let our guard down. His triumph had to be seen to be appreciated and it quickly deflated our little game. ‘Well bless our souls, we said, that splendid chap Richard has just found our stamp’ or was it something rather similar

I hope I don’t have too many ‘Sorry about that’s’

Regards for now – Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 06/10/2011 23:44:23
7 October 2011 at 04:02 #75923
Bill Pudney
Participant
@billpudney37759
Don’t fret about missing drawing “whoopsies” Ramon. When I was a Draftsman I found it close to impossible to spot my own mistakes. We used to add 30% as a “checking allowance” to D.O. estimates.

One prototype project I was involved in was creating a huge amount of grief from the Workshop Manager, he was saying that my drawings were no good and full of errors. Purely in my own defence I went through each of about 200 drawings, added up all the dimensions and compared them to the known errors. The actual error rate was under three percent. At the time in the standard (DEF AUS 5085 I seem to remember) the permitted error rate was five percent. As the Workshop Manager had been spreading my perceived incompetance up to CEO level, I took some pleasure in writing a memo to the person concerned and copying it to my boss and the CEO to explain the facts.

No more problems!!

cheers

Bill Pudney

Edited By Bill Pudney on 07/10/2011 04:03:51
7 October 2011 at 10:13 #75935
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
I am not going to throw teddy out of the pram but I have a touch of the ‘Grump’ again. The machining of the crankshaft is described but NO finished dimensions given (yet). I have to order a 7mm reamer from a local supplier. What else do I need?

Raymond In view of the scuffing you found and the fact that you are trying to reproduce an engine from the late 1940s early 50s I understand your design. I do not want to re create anything I am going to build a 5CC diesel based on your design.

My first change will be to use an oil seal (SOG 102711 8 22 7 2) outboard (on the propeller side) of the main 7mm race to maintain crankcase compression.

My second change will be to use a ring of holes (of a suitable size) as transfer ports.

Raymond would you (and anyone else) care to comment.
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