4.70mm #12 G Silver Steel

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4.70mm #12 G Silver Steel

This topic has 28 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 8 June 2023 at 12:52 by Peter Cook 6.

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28 June 2022 at 21:27 #603414
Peter Cook 6
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@petercook6
Does anyone know where I might get some Stubb's #12 (4.70mm .01850) silver steel rod.

I have acquired a partial staking set and would like to make a few new punches.

The holder takes 4.70 diameter punches. 3/16 (4.7625) is too big. New Bergeron punches are 4.70mm, so it must be available.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 28/06/2022 21:28:10
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28 June 2022 at 21:27 #30234
Peter Cook 6
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@petercook6
28 June 2022 at 21:36 #603415
Nigel Graham 2
Participant
@nigelgraham2
The punches are probably ground to size, not necessarily left a stock size.
28 June 2022 at 21:36 #603416
HOWARDT
Participant
@howardt
Coventry Grinders could possibly supply, centreless ground from 3/16”.
28 June 2022 at 21:41 #603417
Tony Pratt 1
Participant
@tonypratt1
Interesting never heard of Bergeron & their expensive staking punches until now, I doubt you will get 4.7 mm silver steel but after heat treat & polishing the 3/16 maybe will fit? Is hardened 4.7 drill rod from Zoro any good? Also your size is listed at Mcmaster Carr. Likely to be made originally from 5mm hardened stock.

Tony

Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 28/06/2022 21:42:55
28 June 2022 at 21:47 #603418
peak4
Participant
@peak4
Posted by Peter Cook 6 on 28/06/2022 21:27:38:

Does anyone know where I might get some Stubb's #12 (4.70mm .01850) silver steel rod.

I have acquired a partial staking set and would like to make a few new punches.

The holder takes 4.70 diameter punches. 3/16 (4.7625) is too big. New Bergeron punches are 4.70mm, so it must be available.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 28/06/2022 21:28:10

I guess it depends on how many punches you plan on making.
Phoenix Steel will supply metric in 0.1mm increments, but perhaps only in a 2m length
http://toolsteels.co.uk/silver-steels-ground-polished.php

"We have large stocks of silver steel available, ex-works in both metric and imperial sizes. Our primary stock is 2000mm and 1000mm lengths.
We can supply the industry standard 13”/333mm lengths in single or any quantity you require.
We also stock a unique product in 2000mm lengths (from 2mm up to 18mm) of 0.10mm incremental metric sizes for that exact fit."

Bill
28 June 2022 at 22:10 #603424
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 28/06/2022 21:41:47:

Interesting never heard of Bergeron & their expensive staking punches until now, …

.

For info.

Bergeon has been around for quite a while: **LINK**

https://www.bergeon.swiss

MichaelG.
29 June 2022 at 07:36 #603442
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
What about 12g piano/music wire, it's the diameter you want and has a similar carbon content to Silver steel
29 June 2022 at 08:10 #603446
speelwerk
Participant
@speelwerk
Punches of a watchmaker staking tool I have (Boley/Star/Bergeon/Helios) all are 4.7mm diameter, why I don't know but t is not handy if you want to make your own punches. The guide bush for the punches on top of the tool has its bore placed eccentric and a small spring loaded ball to prevent the punchen from sliding down but it would be not to difficult to make one with a 5mm bore. Niko.
29 June 2022 at 08:12 #603448
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
Knocking two thou off a piece of 3/16" in the lathe to reduce it from .187" to the desired .185" (4.7mm) shouldn't be too hard should it? Bit of emery tape would do the job pretty quickly. Or a fine cut with an HSS toolbit if the job is held dead true in a collet or 4-jaw.

Depends on how many punches you want to make though. A dozen or so should be easy enough. More than that could be a bit tedious I'm sure.

Edited By Hopper on 29/06/2022 08:12:41
29 June 2022 at 15:02 #603497
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
Thanks for the feedback. McMaster-Carr has exactly what I need and at US$6.29 for a 3ft length! However they don't ship to Europe.

Bill, I have asked Phoenix for a quote for a couple of 1 Metre lengths, and have also asked an outfit called raptorsupplies who claim to supply any McMaster-Car part in UK. Hopefully their prices will not resemble their name!

Hopper – taking a bit of 3/16 down is my fall-back position, but if I could get the material for anything like McMaster-Carr's price I would do so in preference.

Jason, not sure 12g piano wire is the same wire guage – all the suppliers I can find make 12g = 0.75mm i.e. AWG rather than Stubbs.

Niko, there is a bit of a discussion about the reason behind the size used at

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/identify-staking-punch-and-size.135442/post-1048863

Thanks again.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 29/06/2022 15:18:44
29 June 2022 at 16:36 #603499
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Always been SWG when I have bought it, same with the first few hits on google
29 June 2022 at 16:55 #603501
Dave Halford
Participant
@davehalford22513
Posted by Peter Cook 6 on 29/06/2022 15:02:19:

Jason, not sure 12g piano wire is the same wire guage – all the suppliers I can find make 12g = 0.75mm i.e. AWG rather than Stubbs.

Thanks again.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 29/06/2022 15:18:44

I just thought it was for a really big piano
29 June 2022 at 17:24 #603504
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by JasonB on 29/06/2022 16:36:02:

Always been SWG when I have bought it, same with the first few hits on google

.

… I’m confused, here in my little corner:

Why would anyone want 2.65mm [or thereabouts] wire to make 4.7mm punches ?

MichaelG.
29 June 2022 at 18:16 #603510
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The heading is asking for 4.7mm or 12gauge 2,642mm is 12gauge by the SWG standard. Unless Stubbs had their own gauge system?
29 June 2022 at 18:18 #603511
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
They wouldn't want 12 SWG which is as you say 2.65mm diameter.

No 12 piano wire (AMWG – not AWG my mistake in the reply post) is 0.75mm

They would want #12 Stubbs steel wire guage an old and probably obsolete wire guage. Not to be confused with Stubbs Iron wire guage. The Stubbs #12 steel is 4.7mm. This from a K&D catalogue of staking tools dated 1910.

They seem to have been the instigator of such devices, and everyone copied their standard.

Edit – the metric to inch conversions presumably use the US inch rather than the UK inch – they were different at the time, only standardised to 25.40mm in the 1960's

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 29/06/2022 18:27:00

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 29/06/2022 18:28:42
29 June 2022 at 18:27 #603512
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Thanks For that peter, did not know they had their own system.

Think I had brain fade this morning and had 2.7mm in my head not 4.7

Edited By JasonB on 29/06/2022 18:31:27
29 June 2022 at 20:49 #603532
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
I am now unconfused/deconfused [or whatever] …

MichaelG.
30 June 2022 at 12:51 #603611
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
OK 3/16 and time on the lathe it is.

Phoenix only offered 3/16 not 4.70 special.

Raptor supplies wanted £16.70 each for the bars, £63.00 shipping and handling plus Vat so £115+ for two items totalling US$12.50 at McMaster-Carr.
30 June 2022 at 16:39 #603634
Nick Clarke 3
Participant
@nickclarke3
Tracy Tools list drill branks in all sizes if that would be long enough?
30 June 2022 at 16:50 #603638
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 30/06/2022 16:39:02:

Tracy Tools list drill branks in all sizes if that would be long enough?

.

That sounds ideal

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/06/2022 16:50:40
30 June 2022 at 16:55 #603639
Roger Woollett
Participant
@rogerwoollett53105
Drill Service also have 4.70mm drill blanks. 89mm long and £2.28 + VAT
30 June 2022 at 16:57 #603640
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
If the 4.7mm stock is going to be shaped like some of the available staking tools would HSS drill blanks be a bit more difficult to work than silver steel which can easily be machined before hardening. HSS would really need grinding.

Edited By JasonB on 30/06/2022 17:04:11
30 June 2022 at 17:28 #603645
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
Thank you for the idea. Drill blanks are something I did not know you could buy – filed for future use. However as Jason says, shaping HSS drill blanks (drilling holes in them and shaping them) may be more work than thinning down a bit of silver steel.

I am also not too sure about using HSS as a punch given my ability to chip the edges of HSS lathe tools!

A cheaper source of material may be to buy some old punches off Ebay and anneal and reshape the tips

Thanks again.
30 June 2022 at 18:49 #603653
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by JasonB on 30/06/2022 16:57:08:

If the 4.7mm stock is going to be shaped like some of the available staking tools would HSS drill blanks be a bit more difficult to work than silver steel which can easily be machined before hardening. HSS would really need grinding.

.

The information seems difficult to locate on the U.K. site … but this supports my understanding:

**LINK**

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/what-is-drill-rod/

MichaelG.
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