3D printing seems to have gone quiet. Where are we all at?

[modeng2000Participant @modeng2000]

I have just come across this:-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/30/robox_3d_printer_review/

John

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Hi

I am thinking of buying a Da Vinci 3D printer.

Anyone able to share there experience using one of these?

They look to be very well supported regarding replacement parts as compared to the usual Chinese imports seen on ebay though a little more expensive.

Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks

Nigel

[Peter BondParticipant @peterbond14804]

Not direct experience of using, but the thing that really puts me off is the use of proprietary cartridges – chipped, in the fashion of inkjet cartridges. Parts availability for the Wanhoa seems pretty good, FWIW; I've bought in a couple of spare bits for it but haven't actually needed them yet.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Guy over on MEM has just got one

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

I notice RS have just launched a new 3D printer @ £599 +VAT

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/3d-printers/8286356

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

The cartridges on the Da Vinci set the extruder and bed temperatures according to the material type which no doubt makes life easier for the casual user. You can however find gadgets on the internet to allow you to reset the counter and to give you control of the temperatures.

Russell.

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

I have had a daVinci 3D printer since last May. It does what it says on the tin!, I have uploaded a number of pictures of stuff it has done for me. To be useful such as patterns for casting the printed items need to have a certain amount of attention to produce a good surface finish. This is the same with most 3D printers. The benefit of using ABS is that the finishing process can be accomplished easily. I also have a 3D router which I use fr larger patterns and I need to get rid of tool marks on parts made this way too so no great difference. The thing about the material cost of filament is overplayed, I am still using the cartridge that came with the printer.

I think you will find my pictures earlier in this thread.

Eric

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Having spent a lot of time reading forums etc. about printing and the various printers, the 'hobby' class printers seem to be let down by using cheap inferior components in the gantry systems i.e the rods, bearings and pulleys. That was certainly the case with the Wanhao that I bought and the Ultimakers etc. have the same problems. These printers are built to as low a cost as possible to make the prices attractive and inevitably corners are cut.

I replaced all the rods on the Wanhao as they were either undersize or slightly bent and also the two linear bearings that the print head slides on. Before, the head could rock from side to side which wouldn't help the accuracy of the prints. It's now rock steady and much improved. If you have to go down this route and go for the cheaper chinese linear bearings, buy at least twice as many as you need as you'll find all the fits will be different!

Fortunately, the mods to mine didn't cost that much compared to the cost of the printer and I expected to have to do some work on it myself anyway.

On the whole, the surface finish from the Wanhao is superb, much better than prints from most other 'hobby' machines that I've seen. I've used about 1 ½ rolls of filament so far and never had a failed print so long as the bed levelling is correct. I can happilly just set it going and leave it to it's own devices and often leave it printing overnight.

I still haven't got to the bottom of the problem with spoked wheels though, where the finish on the spokes is not as good as the hub and rim. It's really bugging me! There's no problem at all with solid objects.

John

Edited By John Baguley on 09/01/2015 12:12:05

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Juts a thought.

For people with milling machines would it not be cost effective to convert to CNC and bolt a detachable print head onto the milling head? I imagine this could be done a lot cheaper than buying a 3D printer outright?

Ed.

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

That would probably work but I think the printing speeds would have to be very low due to the large mass of the components in a milling machine compared to a dedicated 3D printer?

John

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Yes, the heads on these things fairly fly about, yet it still seems to take forever to knock out parts, particularly if you are watching. The nozzle diameter is tiny, so you can imagine how many passes are needed to complete a layer, even with a lot of honeycombing inside the model.

Some CNC routers have 3D printer heads too. But these are much lighter and faster machines than proper machine tools.

The subset of g-codes used in 3D printing is supported by the free, open-source software that converts the .STL file to machine paths. For a 3D milling machine however, you'd have a bigger set of operations supported and the CAM software would tend to be a lot more complicated (expensive).

Murray

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Just seen someone printing model railway coach sides in 2mm, 4mm, and 7mm scales. He was printing theM vertically which looked really odd but gave a better finish to the curved surfaces of the sides (tumblehome).

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just caught the advert for this magazine on the TV. Its one of those where you get a bit each week and after 3 years or so and a large outlay you will have a 3D printer of your own, by which time it will be out of date and even more overpriced

 

J

 

Edited By JasonB on 14/01/2015 20:53:30

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

'Everyday Miracles' on BBC4 20:00 to 21:00 hrs this evening had a short but inspirational segment on printing 'scaffolds' on which to grow body-parts from stem cells.

MichaelG.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

A few DaVinci observations:

– the laminated nature of the finished part is pretty visible no matter what layer height setting you use. Not a problem on purely functional parts but crummy for "art" objects (I use the term in its loosest form) which may be the hardest parts to post-finish.

– parts can easily split along the laminations if stressed, at least on my machine – I've even done that when removing the part from the platen. It's almost as if the temperature needs to be a little higher but that's set in the cartridge as someone noted. Problem can be eased by careful design, minimising stress-raisers.

– the slicing software supplied is generally reckoned to be rather "brain-dead". I'd have to agree. It's for the totally unsophisticated user (not using "sophisticated" in the Tom Lehrer sense if anyone remembers him)

– as noted here, the cartridge can be "hacked' allowing you to use an external material source as well as modify the temperature a little. There are also ways to use slic3r instead of the manufacturer's software. XYZ though is not sitting back and letting it happen. Some of the recent software/firmware changes have been aimed at preventing such hacks. This means that it's safer not to update if you intend going that route since there is no (official) path to downgrade again …. although there are unofficial ways that are purported to work.

– the ultimate hack of the machine is to replace the firmware altogether allowing slic3r and perhaps other slicers to work. Also allows much greater control over temperature and material. All levels of hack, of course, carry the risk of turning the machine into a boat anchor ….. except perhaps the cartridge reset which really only affects a cartridge, presumably empty and useless anyway.

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Further to my post a above, thanks for the very helpful feedback re De Vinci 3D printer. Jason's MEM link was particularly helpful which includes links to some informative you tube video reviews.

Negative comments about the firmware and cartridges rather put me off the Di Vinci machine. While I don't mind a bit of mechanical hacking to improve a machine I don't feel confident hacking the firmware, the supplied firmware looks particularly lacking in flexibility and functionality.

I am also put off buying a cheap machine from ebay (due to -ve feed back concerning machines and suppliers.

So still pondering.

Cheers

Nigel

[Peter BondParticipant @peterbond14804]

The downside to the flexibility on other printers is the number of seemingly conflicting opinions of the "correct" settings for a particular filament – they tend to be presented as gospel without warnings about different manufacturers filament, how long the filament has been exposed to the atmosphere (PLA filament seems to be hygroscopic), ambient temperature and so on. Running the extruder at a slightly higher temperature can get layers to bond better, but in the case of PLA it can contribute to warping.

Really interested in the mods done to the Wanhao mentioned above – mine is adequate for the task, but I've not bothered testing much; I suppose I ought to print a 123 block and see how accurate it is. I've got updated fw in mine that controls the acceleration of the printhead, so it's less inclined to shake as much now. I've been printing bits for the new printer that's arriving soon; no real need other than I wanted to see what some of the components looked like.

At the moment I tend to take the view that where the extruder printers excel at making oddball components – jigs I've mentioned before, but also where they are used in conjunction with standard parts such as nuts (pressed into printed handles for low-torque applications) or used as joints for rods.

One other model I've seen a fair amount of praise for is the Up Plus2, FWIW.  About twice the price of the Wanhao, but I've seen some good prints from it and the self-levelling build plate sounds like a godsend.

Edited By Peter Bond on 18/01/2015 07:59:57

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 18/01/2015 01:38:54:

(not using "sophisticated" in the Tom Lehrer sense if anyone remembers him)

Oh yes, I bought an LP (remember them) of "An evening wasted with Tom Lehrer" in the 60s. Brilliant satirical songs plus of course "The Elements". I never did manage to learn all the lyrics of that one.

Russell.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Back on topic – the problem with all the cheap printers and kits is that they are made to be used (hopefully) by the general public who are then very disappointed and give poor reviews (quite rightly). There are some priced at under $300 now so my expectation from that, unmodified, would be pretty low.

Perhaps the time is right for an engineer to design and build a low cost printer and publish build articles in MEW. Perhaps using a light rigid famework from aluminium sheet or extrusions, decent linear bearings, and probably using a commercial extruder?

I don't however think we will be printing replacement body parts at home any time soon.

Russell.

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

I think it's only when you start to use the printer for serious work that you find the real problems with them. A lot of people seem to use them as just a 'toy' and seem happy with the finish etc. that they produce. I'm sure all of them can be improved though with a bit of work and maybe different software.

Reading on the forums, it seems the slicing software to have is Simplify3D. Unfortunately, it's not free but people changing over to it have reported vast improvements in print quality over the stock software that usually comes with the printers.

Unfortunately, the Wanhao D5S range use a unique format for the print files that they use (i files) so can't read standard Gcode files that most of the slicers produce. However, there is a slicer (Ideamaker) that has a translate function built in to it that will translate Gcode files to the Wanhao i format so you can use other slicers instead of the Wanhaomaker that is supplied. I've been able to try a couple of other slicers (Ideamaker and Cura) with success to see if my problem is slicer based.

I'm still chasing the problem with poor finish on wheel spokes but without a lot of success at the moment. I'm still not sure yet whether it's the printer or the software. There's not much left I can do to the printer! The finish on exterior surfaces is very very good. It's almost like glass and at 0.1mm layer height you can hardly see or feel the layers so the printer is obviously capable of good results. The prints are very strong as well so layer adhesion is good. I'm on my 3rd roll of filament without a failed print so far. Just this d**n problem with the spokes

Nigel – I decided against buying one off Ebay as well for the reasons you state – the possibility of poor or non existent support.

John

Edited By John Baguley on 18/01/2015 10:41:10

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

At sandown there were a dozen printers on show but at APally only two. One commercial that I couldn't get near and one club stand. The club one was a Reprap style but after looking at 30 pages of pictures on thingverse I can't see it to show you.

Anyway listening to that builder, obviously taking a ME approach, he had not re-engineered the plastic into metal because it needed to keep the weight down. He had used 'engineering techniques' to do things like aligning parts and reaming holes to improve quality which a non ME would not have the tool for nor think about. I think this is a wise approach as it would be all too easy for one of us to overengineer things.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Well having owned a 3d printer for nearly a year now I feel I should make a few observations to those considering or about to buy a new one.

Firstly 3D printing like everything else in life requires time and effort to become proficient. Time that I haven't really spent. There are so many variables and so much conflicting information that until you have developed a good understanding of what does what and what the effects are, you are liable to become hopelessly lost. A recent experience of mine was that after several software updates I started to get unusable results. I had lost my initial settings and started to get things like delamination and parts not sticking to the bed etc. Fortunately I was able to phone the chap who supplied it and he sent me his settings. This whole episode was caused by each update subtly changing things until the whole thing wouldn't work.

Secondly I'm inclined to think that the choice between cartridge based units where all the settings for the material are contained within the cartridge ( I assume that this is what is now available) and the machines where you buy any spool of material and set everything yourself, comes down to how often you are going to use it. If you are not going to use it very often then you are also not going to acquire the knowledge of how to use it. Also the expense of buying cartridges is not so great as you aren't buying very often.

My first attempts with ABS were so bad that I almost gave up with it. I then started to keep a log of all the settings. I started printing a 1 inch cube and slowly altered the settings and each time recorded the results. After a while I was getting reasonable results and I stopped keeping the log which I feel was a big mistake.

One final thing I should point out is that my printer is very well made and quite solid, so while I may not have always had good results I have never felt that the construction of the printer was in any way to blame.

Regards.

David

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Perhaps the time is right for an engineer to design and build a low cost printer and publish build articles in MEW. Perhaps using a light rigid famework from aluminium sheet or extrusions, decent linear bearings, and probably using a commercial extruder?

I would be very interested in such a project, though I think it might be even better to take it on as a collaborative project, perhaps through the involvement of the SMEE digital workshop.

There' already a lot of interest in the little Piccolo and I think the experiences of getting that up and running as a collaborative project coudl be a big help towards the end of a 'group-sourced' printer.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

TV is now advertising a 3D plastic printer, It is in Smiths today and with a come on price very low but turn the card over and then you see it is in 90 parts at £6.99 a throw so your printer will cost in the region of £630 and by the time you get the last issue it will be 5 to 6 years at one issue a month. I would think it will be long out of date by then.

Clive

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

To all . The printer mentioned above (v3)..via the magazine. .
Cheaky enough at 6.99 a week ..but two of the edition will be ( wk 53 and 59 IIRC) 14.99..

Other than that looks ok design…apart from the 90 week lead time. . (But that’s better than some suppliers have achieved!)…

Just in case anyone intrested..
Host (pc/ mac) software…custom ver. of repetier host..
Slicer programme..is I think slic3r..

Hard ware looks like a sanguinio.. ( replaces audrino mega and ramps boards) stepper drivers ..some sort of polou clone…
My guess using a variant of marlin ( opensource) firmware

And 3d cad…sketch up make..

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