3D printing seems to have gone quiet. Where are we all at?

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

On reply to a pm.
Enquiring after those filter parts I posted of earlier filter ….”the part was actually production for Rotorflush Filters….this is how the parts are made for production. .in fact these filters woulds exist in any economic form without 3d printing. Scale (quantity) means that dies for moulded parts would be prohibitive and would entail an assembly of parts where as the printed object comes of the printer practically finished. Offended?.. no not at all I guess I didn”t make the point I was after ..that the implications of ” home” fabrication is akin to the change in the recording industry

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I don't think 3D printers change much in terms of copying things actually. Multi axis cnc machines have been able to do that for a long time. Just more affordable – in some ways as some seem more able to produce better results than others but a lot of that is probably down to settings.

Maybe they will lay glass filled plastics at some point. Who knows. If a substance can be moulded it could also be extruded. Background info suggests materials other than PLA and ABS can already be used.

In terms of use for production an increasing number of items are made on cnc machines from solid these days. The filter people could just keep installing more and more 3D printers as their sales go up. At some point they may reach a level were other methods are more viable. I've seen unhardened plastic moulding tools being used for modest volumes. The lack of hardening saves a fair amount of money. I've also seen them mostly made of timber. Early days more realistic prototyping sometimes cheaper than having models made. 3D printing looks ideal for much of that but probably bettered by UV and resin set ups.

Patents are odd things. Many wont hold water legally. They are often taken out to slow competitors down – if they start doing what ever it is take 'em to court. That can prevent them from doing it for years, for ever in some cases as fighting to the bitter end is just too expensive. If it's a component used by some one else the people who need it wont buy it in case legal action prevents them from making what ever it is that uses the part. Some patents as stupid as they sometimes are do hold water legally. I remember one concerning car battery cases where the walls were under 2.5mm thick or some number like that. Really the clever part was being able to make them.

Registered designs are better but don't really offer much protection really.

In either case I don't think there is any problem currently with copying for own use.

John

–

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

One of the unmentioned advantages of additive machining is internal cavities…both honeycomb for material reduction ( cost time weight) and embedded parts ..from metal inserts to other property of “plastic”…

Just for fused filament printers there are
Carbon fiber and glass in plastics …widely done

Polyurethane parts with say abs bones…done
Temperature senitive plastics…change colour depwnding on print temp…done
Woodlike material..again temp sensitive so you can print “grain” as you go..even seen database of tree rings so print wood felled on given .
date

Nylon
Graphite loaded
Polyurethane
Pla
Abs
Polycarbonate
Igus bearing materials

And theres fused metal printing…think mig welder…
And theres

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Ajohnw on 01/03/2016 13:48:05:

Maybe they will lay glass filled plastics at some point. Who knows. If a substance can be moulded it could also be extruded. Background info suggests materials other than PLA and ABS can already be used.

Check here **LINK** for special filaments. The fireable ceramic, filter, carbon fibre, iron filled and soluble PVA types are interesting. The high flexibility variety may be just what I have been looking for to print some WW1 scale aircraft tyres with the manufacturer's logo embossed eg; Palmer Aero Cord Tyre.

* Danny M *

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

"3D printed items will always take a finite time to produce and need assembly if nothing else. In the real world printers will jam, run out of materials or glitch now and again."

I know this from experience, i worked as the inspector for a company that dealt in machined plastics and would quite happily spend £100k to get the finest slider head lathe with bar feed that money can buy.

My point is you would hardly believe the amount of time things just didn't work out for one reason or another, either the tools wore down or were clogged or positional error. On paper these machines could make just about any turned part you could imagine in a couple of minutes to micron precision. In reality you could get deformities, unlimited burrs and big tolerance glitches.

The fact that we were there to do this was simply part of the running costs, but if we didn't mind the machines, the whole process would simply collapse, The finest machine could not make perfect components and nor could it do it without a team of people to mind it and maintain the equipment.

I have no doubt that this is also the case with 3D printers. There is no such thing as a machine which operates entirely in reality without human intervention. It's likely to be a piece of sci-fi for a long long time, because you can never get round the fact that "nature doesn't like consistencies."- Things just can and will go wrong, if you're unlucky.

The company did look at 3D printing in the end, out of curiosity and it turned out that it could not accurately replicate the components without huge layering/stepping issues, they were also out of tolerance and it took 23 hours to make that, whereas a cnc makes it in around 5 minutes each.

I think i've said my piece! 😛

Michael W

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/03/2016 12:04:45:

 

You've got me confused there Jason – anyone with a digital sub can download MEW.

My point was just atht the extra effort of 'print at home' is too much for most readers, so I'm sure it will be the same for objects.

 

What I think is too much for most readers is the effort of downloading the magazine one page at a time via the on-line reader here (unless things have greatly changed since I let my subscription lapse) plus the cost of printing the complete, full-colour magazine via an ink-jet or colour laser which means the cost saving is negligible (or perhaps even negative).

The other alternative (printing from the Pocket-Mags edition) is even worse since the quality is terrible, it includes intrusive watermarks and the same comments with respect to printing costs apply.

I do agree that most readers won't bother – though not because of the effort alone.

Edited By Bandersnatch on 01/03/2016 18:20:43

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by jason udall on 01/03/2016 12:12:49:
Neil..some time ago the archive was printable or at least pdf formated. ….this was changed to stop what apeared to be collections being sold by third parties. If I remember correctly.

The point is that mew or mtm or whoever made a change to prevent what you suggest wouldn't happen because its too much bother.

Urban myth! You can still print from the Digital Archive if you want to.

See this thread where we try and help someone who had problems with printing – they solved it in the end:

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=114903

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by jason udall on 01/03/2016 14:11:18:
One of the unmentioned advantages of additive machining is internal cavities…both honeycomb for material reduction ( cost time weight) and embedded parts ..from metal inserts to other property of "plastic"…

And theres

Conductive is a new one I saw recently, so you can print in electric circuits.

Neil

[ZebethyalParticipant @zebethyal]

At the TCT show last year, one of the exhibitors was showing off their ability to print with sand, the main application being for casting metal, either using the sand part as a pattern, or as a core. As far as they were concerned, the more complex the design the better, these phenolic sand prints have been used for casting turbines and engine blocks.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neil, early on I seem to recall it was possible to print off a whole mag as the early archived ones were just PDF documents. This is what Jason U is refering to as it was easy for someone with access to just burn a load of mags to a CD and flog them. it was then changed to only allow one page at a time to be printed to paper or a pdf maker to discorage bootleg copies

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

Is copying of ME or MEW relevant 3D printing? Jason?

"At the TCT show last year, one of the exhibitors was showing off their ability to print with sand, the main application being for casting metal, either using the sand part as a pattern, or as a core. As far as they were concerned, the more complex the design the better, these phenolic sand prints have been used for casting turbines and engine blocks"……. Sand printing has been around for a long time Timorthy and is VERY EXPENSIVE

Eric

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Ennech on 02/03/2016 11:59:06:

Is copying of ME or MEW relevant 3D printing? Jason?

I think the analogy is sound. 3D printing is a method of re-producing a single item very slowly but isn't (yet) an economical method of reproducing multiple items. Similarly, printing a back volume of ME or MEW by printing page by page at home is going to be very expensive in ink and time compared with buying back copies.

Cheers,

Rod

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

Surely 2D printing then

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

3D Printing is perfect for the purpose of which it was designed for – prototyping or "rapid prototyping" to be specific, the ability to test ideas out quickly and resolve problems which would normally occur during the mechanical assembly of objects, it's also quite a handy tool for an artisan too which allows them to create solid objects quickly so they can see their ideas come to life. Roderick sums it up quite well, it isn't exactly a quick process of production but people say at least not yet, anyway.

Michael W

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The downside of rapid prototyping.

When I first started work You could ask a secretary to type a letter with 2 carbons and that's all. More copies required a requisition to the print room. So you had to get it right and she had to get it right. More than 2 Snowpake corrections and she started again.
Reports and specifications, even after the typing pool got a word processor (mainframe) started with only one chance of amending the text. Gradually awkward people would exploit the technology and keep rewriting. Eventually it got so you could never get a document out the door with full approval. Then the few females there were in the factory went and you each got your own word processor and could delay things even more.

Same happened when the Drawing Office got CAD.

We just launched a new device. Mid last year I saw the case prototypes were already lined up by the dozen as one person after another wanted a tweak. Artsy designer types just cant make up their minds. When they get a 3D printer in the office it will be a new version twice a day.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Steve F – more about your experience of the Fabrikator would be interesting,

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Eric.

My question to the fora was basically what happens when the practice to copy /reproduce a thing..for ones own use. is considered ok.. becomes wide spread.

This lead to “people have paper printers at home but still buy magazines” argument
Which lead to if it is too much trouble to down load/ print magazine..why do magazines take the effort to prevent such…

Thus the comparison.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by jason udall on 02/03/2016 18:16:50:
Eric.

My question to the fora was basically what happens when the practice to copy /reproduce a thing..for ones own use. is considered ok.. becomes wide spread.

This lead to "people have paper printers at home but still buy magazines" argument
Which lead to if it is too much trouble to down load/ print magazine..why do magazines take the effort to prevent such…

Thus the comparison

Ah. I was only commenting on the printing bit. Plenty of people download, but if we allowed it for free or made copying easy we would soon be out of business…

Neil

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Neil.. thats the point.. even though "ahh no body would bother" publishers ( quite rightly) chose to protect their IP

..bored now

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

It is indeed quiet. It seems there where several RepRap groups local to me in the Portsmouth area. But they all seem to have disappointingly faded away. Unless of course if you know differently, I would like to have contact details please.

[Ron ColvinParticipant @roncolvin83430]

When I came across this, I had to check that it was not posted on-line April the first.

**LINK**

I have been waiting for small resin printers to come down in price, but was not expecting to see this sort of drop.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

That looks amazing. Has anybody on this forum actually used one ? The resins seem to be the soft flexible type rather than the ''harder'' type which I would find more useful.

Edited By Brian John on 09/04/2016 07:29:36

[S.D.L.Participant @s-d-l]

Posted by Brian John on 09/04/2016 07:28:48:

That looks amazing. Has anybody on this forum actually used one ? The resins seem to be the soft flexible type rather than the ''harder'' type which I would find more useful.

Edited By Brian John on 09/04/2016 07:29:36

The Link claims soft and hard resin as well as a melt out one for lost wax casting. Looks interesting.

Steve

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Might be worth punting £100 on kickstarter – but beware which package you choose, you could just end up with eight bottles of resin!

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Looks like a bit of a game changer for prototypes that one, especially since scaling up for industry is a doddle… just get a tablet screen instead of a phone…

If they can mass produce that resin relatively cheaply then the world is their oyster, clever stuff

[Author]

Posts