Beyond Tich- a Haine StPierre 0-4-0 2ft gauge loco to model

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Beyond Tich- a Haine StPierre 0-4-0 2ft gauge loco to model

This topic has 37 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 25 June 2021 at 12:13 by J Hancock.

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14 September 2010 at 11:33 #980
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
this rare little loco hasnt been modelled before
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14 September 2010 at 11:33 #55618
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
Gentlemen

this is a plea for help and an opportunity for one or more of you.

I would like to see an article in model engineer for a 3 1/2″ and or a 7 1/4″ gauge model of this rare little 2ft gauge locomotive.

This is the only loco from the Belgian maker Haine-StPierre ever to be imported to Australia. I believe it was made in 1887. It currently sits as a display in a park in the main Street of Meekatharra in Western Australia.

It has been stripped of many components (prepared for display it was described as) but one of everything remains.

There are no details sufficient for this neophyte to determin what the valve gear was on the loco. it is all external to the frames though. There is also no details available of the setup of the rear of the boiler.

The Dutch Steam Restoration Society has photos on their web site of a similar loco that I think is under restoration so you chaps in europe and england should have a better chance of filling in the missing details than I have found that I have.

My Haine-StPierre photo album on this web site has a few more photos and 10 dimensioned sketches I made when I had access to the loco. I have about 80 detail photos that I can add to the photo album if there is interest in modelling this loco.

just get David the editor to make a post agreeing to the upload and I’ll do it.

My photos and sketches I regard as being in the public domain so anyone having a shot at a ME design article will have a free go at it.

regards

Howard
14 September 2010 at 11:57 #55623
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi Howard

Load them up.

Maybe a 32mm gauge version will materialise.

Can you point us at the other European website?

regards David
14 September 2010 at 21:55 #55648
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
What a wonderful machine. It looks more like an 60s fridge than a firebox – perhaps it’s an ice-engine?

Is the equally fascinating device behind it a plough of some sort?

Neil

(Must learn to spell check before clicking ‘save’)

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 14/09/2010 21:56:13
15 September 2010 at 07:04 #55658
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
Do you have a link for the Dutch site?

Secondly do you have a better photograph of the “works”. It may be posible to figure out what gear it had from the arrangments there, eg if it has two eccentrics on each side then it would be Stevensons, if it has a big boss partway along the connecting rod it could be Joys gear. The eccentrics may be inside the frame of course, they often were on outside cylinder locos.

Not that I am volunteering…

regards

john
15 September 2010 at 14:45 #55676
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
I located the european web site by searching the images.

I thought it was dutch but it turns out to be belgian. sorry

http://www.stoomcentrum.be/EN/SmalspoorEN/SmalrollendEN.html

is the page with the other similar Haine StPierre engine.

I’ll get back to adding photos after emailing the originals to the editor.

from Australia I can upload one at a time slowly so this will take some time.

you’ll get to see them all in time. just be patient.

Howard

Sir Neil Stub-Mandrel thanks for pointing me to how to do this. you’re a gem!
15 September 2010 at 16:00 #55678
John Baguley
Participant
@johnbaguley78655
The valve gear would almost certainly have been Walschaert’s, as in the loco on the Belgian website. Looks like the backhead has had a plate rivetted over the firehole, no doubt to stop small creatures (i.e. children) crawling inside!

And I’m not volunteering either. I’ve got enough loco designs on the go as it is

John
15 September 2010 at 17:41 #55682
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
Stub Mandrel

the fascinating device behind the loco is a horse drawn road grader I seem to recall.

I’ll upload more tomorrow night.

H
15 September 2010 at 21:41 #55696
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Sir Neil Stub-Mandrel

Crikey, If I’m ever elevated to the peerrage I shall insist on that as my title!

Neil
16 September 2010 at 15:31 #55733
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
well gentlemen, I’ve uploaded over 90 images and 10 dimensioned sketches of this rare little loco. what is missing are the details of the steam fittings and boiler internals.

if you can crack what they are and work out what valve motion was used you are well on the way to a minor Model Engineer fame and fortune.

if any australian modeller has photos of this loco during its service life please post them. it was supposedly used on the Peak Hill gold mine during its working life. I’d love to know what it’s coal or wood tender looked like and what the ore carriages it hauled look like.

it has been 5 years since I spent a few afternoons measuring and recording the details and in the period since I’ve drawn a total blank. I can find no mention of this little loco anywhere. (doesnt mean that I havent stopped looking though)

Dave the editor believes that the collective wisdom of the model engineering community can crack the mystery. I’d love it if he was right.

over to you guys…

Many Thanks to Model Engineer for allowing me to post all the photos.
16 September 2010 at 15:56 #55736
John Baguley
Participant
@johnbaguley78655
I don’t think it would have had a tender Howard. It would have had a small coal bunker on the lefthand side of the cab, just like the Belgian museum one. If you look at the lefthand views inside the cab, you can see the outline of the bunker on the floor and some of the angle that would have fastened it.

The valve gear is definitely Walschaert’s. The rear crankpin has the extension to take the return crank and the drop arm for the combination lever would have bolted onto the boss on the outside of the crosshead. There is a keyway on the bottom to prevent it turning. The motion bracket also gives it away. The radius rod passes through the long slot and the bearings for the expansion link would have bolted on using the two holes either side of the slot. Unfortunately, the larger image of the centre thumbnail of the loco on the Belgian museum site, which shows the valve gear clearly, does not seem to exist!

As you said earlier, the Belgian loco is almost identical to this one and I would imagine the motion etc. would have been the same. The cylinders certainly look identical.

John
16 September 2010 at 18:54 #55745
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi Howard

A queery on the wheels.

The diameter over flanges is given as 420 and the wheel is given as 340.

That makes the flanges 40 deep. Even allowing for a slight taper that sounds a lot.

regards David
16 September 2010 at 19:14 #55746
Weary
Participant
@weary
The valve-gear of the Belgian example is shown pretty clearly in pic’ at bottom left of this page.
16 September 2010 at 19:36 #55747
John Baguley
Participant
@johnbaguley78655
I missed those at the bottom! The second one links to a few more as well.

Having studied both sets of photos, I think the Australian loco is virtually the same as the Belgian but with a few minor differences. That balloon stack is not original – it should have a stovepipe type. The balloon’s been tacked on afterwards over what is left of the original. In the photo looking down the chimney, the centre pipe is probably the original which has been torched off.

The chassis and the boiler look the same but with slightly different length tanks and a different shaped cab. The boiler fittings look as though they would be the same and in the same positions.

John
17 September 2010 at 00:48 #55762
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
That balloon stack is not original – it should have a stovepipe type.

Not in Australia it shouldn’t…they have enough bush fires over there as it is.

Even here in somewhat wetter New Zealand, a lot of the locos back in the 19th century had two chimneys, a balloon spark arrester type for summer and a straight stack for winter. (The spare would be at the depot) This was because they steam better with a normal stack, so you use that when you can get away with it.

regards

John
17 September 2010 at 01:11 #55763
John Baguley
Participant
@johnbaguley78655
What I’m suggesting John is that is not the chimney that was fitted when it left the factory. It may well have been ‘modified’ to suit the local environment.

John
17 September 2010 at 02:40 #55764
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
Yes, I realise that is what you meant…I was being a little bit tongue in cheek and should have put a smiley.

Probably it entered service with the straight stack and they rapidly discovered a problem.

No chance of a bushfire here today anyway.

John
17 September 2010 at 12:43 #55787
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Johns’ proberbly heard of Josephine, the double Fairly in Dunedin, for many years it stood outside with Balloon ‘Stacks’, but when restored and put inside at the Early Settlers museum it got straight ‘stacks’, I think thats how it was when first obtained by NZR. I imagine it would be a difficult engine to model, and even more so to drive, with its two boilers! Ian S C
17 September 2010 at 13:31 #55789
Howard Jones
Participant
@howardjones35282
my fellow club member Jim has been asking me whether I’d looked in the Battye Library, our state historical repository. well I went in and had a look today.

there is a single book on the history of Peak Hill goldmine. in the book is a single photo of the loco probably many years after it had ceased being used.

now I am a total neophyte when it comes to valve gears so I looked it up in a book.

…but I’m still not much wiser. doesnt the valve gear look to be simpler than walscharts? couldnt it be something like Hackworth that was used on industrial locos?

then I noticed the absence of brake actuating gear. I wonder how many years the loco was used without brakes good grief.

notice though the type of safety valve used. very like tich.

for the chap who questioned the wheel flange size. I posted the scanned notes made at the time to prevent transcription errors. there is a clear shot of the wheel showing tread and flange angles. you should be able to scale off the photo to confirm. I think my figures are right though. it has hefty flanges.

howard
17 September 2010 at 17:51 #55797
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Are you certain that valve gear was Walschaert’s/. It could also have been a Hacksworth which is much simpler and cheaper. The duties of this little loco would have been short runs so good cutoff is not realy a big necessity.
17 September 2010 at 19:52 #55801
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Howard,

109 pictures! you deserve a medal. This wee engine is almost sierd enoug to make me want to model it!

Neil
17 September 2010 at 20:24 #55808
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

Copying other photos from the website mentioned and lightening them up and it is almost certainly Walschearts’ gear.

Not sure about details of the expansion link and trunnion though.

Need to look at photos of a similar locomotive to see it clearly.

regards David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 17/09/2010 20:27:57
17 September 2010 at 20:35 #55809
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

4 3/4 gauge would be 1:5 full size.

I think this is near enough and would easily be stretched to make a 5in. gauge model.

That means frames are 536mm x 82mm.

I think I have some 1/8in. material in the shed.

Problem is time but it is interesting thinking about it.

The drawings posted are very comprehensive and could certainly be used to make a model.

110 diameter boiler, sounds large enough.

regards David
19 September 2010 at 11:34 #55902
Bob Thornton
Participant
@bobthornton11506
G’day,

I asked Adrian Gunzberg if he could shed any further light on this loco, he has kindly offered the following from his personal files…

“I came across this loco when I was perusing the W.A. Machinery Dept boiler inspection files in 1968-69. It was built by the Societe Anonyme des Forges, Usines et Fonderies de et a Haine St Pierre, Belgium. The company was abbreviated to Haine St Pierre. It was their builder’s number 461 of 1894 and the loco was in use at 1 August 1899 at The Peak Hill Gold Field Ltd, at Peak Hill (near Meekatharra). It was still in use on 4 December 1903 but was out of use by 17 July 1918, owned by Western Machinery Coy. It survived until recent times when it was preserved. I have a photo of the loco with the name “Coolgardie” painted on the tank side above the letters U.M. ore R.Co.Ltd (United Mines Ore Reduction Co). More research is required as to when it ran for this company. The valve gear could be Joy – a sort of “poor man’s” Walschaerts common on industrial locos.”

cheers,

Bob
26 September 2010 at 14:30 #56129
Weary
Participant
@weary
Here is a pretty clear view of the Belgian loco, 416, showing the valve gear.

There appears to be a very similar locomotive in Australia on the ‘Puffing Billy Railroad’.
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