Which Stuart models can be done on a 7×14 lathe with no mill?

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Which Stuart models can be done on a 7×14 lathe with no mill?

This topic has 33 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 28 September 2022 at 21:12 by old mart.

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24 July 2019 at 12:54 #420735
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Hi,

Just joined and added my piece to the new members section.

Looking to build my 1st steam engine soon and one of the smaller Stuart models seems like an excellent place to start from what I can see. I don't have a workshop set up yet other than a few basic hand tools so have been looking at the Amadeal or Sieg 7×14 mini lathes. I had originally thought of buying a machined kit to start with but relaised the cost difference between castings set and machine kit is over £400 for the small engines and increasing as you up the scale! If I only ever built 2 small engines the lathe would pay for itself.

Herein lies the question. If I go down the route of a 7×14 which would probably be my limit in terms of cost and space, what is the biggest Stuart I could manage using a vertical slide for milling bed plates/ sole plates (my terminology isn't great here)?

The 10H and 10V look fairly compact, as does the D10. I'd like to do an S50 but worry that the bed plate would be 2 long to machine in 1 operation in that set up. I'd like to go up to a Twin Victoria at some point as well but I'm guessing that would be out on both bed plate and flywheel size?

Stuart have a 10% offer on kits at the minute so was thinking of buying my first kit (or maybe 2) but don't want to buy something I can't machine!

Thanks in advance for any input.

Ben
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24 July 2019 at 12:54 #9767
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
24 July 2019 at 13:14 #420740
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
You could always buy a kit to take advantage of the offer and then look around for a lathe.

Brian
24 July 2019 at 13:31 #420743
Former Member
Participant
@formermember19781
[This posting has been removed]
24 July 2019 at 13:57 #420753
steamdave
Participant
@steamdave
Have you thought of building an engine using bar stock materials? If you have no or little experience, a simple bar stock engine will give you something to help you get used to working with your new lathe.

It would work out considerably cheaper than a casting kit and if/when you make a mistake, a new bit of steel/ally would be easier, and again cheaper than getting a replacement casting.

John-Tom is a good place to have a look at ideas. http://www.john-tom.com/html/SteamPlans.html

Dave
The Emerald Isle
24 July 2019 at 14:10 #420755
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Thanks for the replies. While they're on offer I think I may well go down the route of buying either a 10H or 10V as a first project and a S50 or D10 to put aside as a second project, while keeping an eye out for a suitable lathe.

I'll keep an eye on the classifieds here and will join my local club. I'm between York and Leeds so only about 15 minutes from York Model Engineers. Will have to try to get to one of their open days soon. I'm not sure what facilities are typical at most clubs but I imagine if I did end up with a smallish lathe, they may have bigger machines available that could be used for the occasional larger flywheel or bedplate.

Ben
24 July 2019 at 14:12 #420756
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Posted by steamdave on 24/07/2019 13:57:45:

Have you thought of building an engine using bar stock materials? If you have no or little experience, a simple bar stock engine will give you something to help you get used to working with your new lathe.

It would work out considerably cheaper than a casting kit and if/when you make a mistake, a new bit of steel/ally would be easier, and again cheaper than getting a replacement casting.

John-Tom is a good place to have a look at ideas. http://www.john-tom.com/html/SteamPlans.html

Dave
The Emerald Isle

Good point Dave. I'll have a look through that while I'm at the swarf making stage rather than risk ruining a casting or 2.

Ben
24 July 2019 at 14:22 #420757
Stuart Bridger
Participant
@stuartbridger82290
The 10V is an ideal starting point, especially as you can get the accompanying book. That was how I started. I do have a mill, but the book is written for those who don't. Don't worry too much about wrecking castings, Stuart spares aren't that expensive (don't ask me how I know). Bar stock is also a good idea, I am currently working on an Elmers Engine. Don't expect detailed instructions though. See **LINK**
24 July 2019 at 14:40 #420759
Martin of Wick
Participant
@martinofwick
Ben,

the ubiquitous mini lathe is quite capable out of the box for a swing of only about 6 inches. I know they claim 7 inches but in actuality, the limitations of the cross slide mean that it is very difficult to position the tool sufficiently outboard for the full quoted diameter. Just warning you!

You can sort of work around it to some extent by mounting tools sideways, but it usually results in significant overhang. Other solutions are available to modify the cross slide to increase the full range of movement (and top slide to).

The other prob, is you may want to use the lathe for milling, and the cross slide of the bog basic 7×12 is not slotted and does not offer any mounting options. You will need to make an adapter plate for attaching a vertical slide or angle plate – I say this because your limited centre height may be further reduced by such an adapter. You could attach directly to drillings in the cross slide, but it is a rather flimsy component at best, best have a sacrificial plate to preserve the integrity of the supplied component.

However, where there is a will… on my old ML10 which could only swing 6 inches, I made a spindle raiser with a 2 inch lift which allowed diameters up to 10 inches to be (carefully) machined. The truncated myford nose spindle ran in AC bearings in a billet of aluminium, driven from the lathe spindle via a taper with M5 timing pulleys. I think I geared the driven spindle to about half lathe spindle speed. It may be a solution if you want to stretch the capacity in future.
24 July 2019 at 14:43 #420760
Stuart Smith 5
Participant
@stuartsmith5
Ben

For information, there is an Amadeal cj18 lathe for sale at the moment in the 'for sale' ads on this forum.
24 July 2019 at 15:14 #420767
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
The is always the Midlands Model Engineering Exhibition 17th October to Sunday 20th October 2019, there are usually some dealers there so that you can at least have a look at what there is and maybe even get an Exhibition bargain! ( Stuarts are usually there also)

Brian
24 July 2019 at 15:20 #420769
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Posted by Martin of Wick on 24/07/2019 14:40:51:

Ben,

the ubiquitous mini lathe is quite capable out of the box for a swing of only about 6 inches. I know they claim 7 inches but in actuality, the limitations of the cross slide mean that it is very difficult to position the tool sufficiently outboard for the full quoted diameter. Just warning you!

You can sort of work around it to some extent by mounting tools sideways, but it usually results in significant overhang. Other solutions are available to modify the cross slide to increase the full range of movement (and top slide to).

The other prob, is you may want to use the lathe for milling, and the cross slide of the bog basic 7×12 is not slotted and does not offer any mounting options. You will need to make an adapter plate for attaching a vertical slide or angle plate – I say this because your limited centre height may be further reduced by such an adapter. You could attach directly to drillings in the cross slide, but it is a rather flimsy component at best, best have a sacrificial plate to preserve the integrity of the supplied component.

However, where there is a will… on my old ML10 which could only swing 6 inches, I made a spindle raiser with a 2 inch lift which allowed diameters up to 10 inches to be (carefully) machined. The truncated myford nose spindle ran in AC bearings in a billet of aluminium, driven from the lathe spindle via a taper with M5 timing pulleys. I think I geared the driven spindle to about half lathe spindle speed. It may be a solution if you want to stretch the capacity in future.

That pretty much sums up what I've been reading, that the generic mini lathes are a fine starting point and can be improved upon to some extent, but have their limitations.. I'd like to go for something bigger but budget and garage space have put a stop to that (for now).

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 24/07/2019 14:43:40:

Ben

For information, there is an Amadeal cj18 lathe for sale at the moment in the 'for sale' ads on this forum.

Thanks. I'd spotted that but by the time I've got it from Devon to Yorkshire it's not far off the price of a brand new one. Will certainly keep it under consideration though.

Ben
24 July 2019 at 15:29 #420770
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Posted by Brian H on 24/07/2019 15:14:03:

The is always the Midlands Model Engineering Exhibition 17th October to Sunday 20th October 2019, there are usually some dealers there so that you can at least have a look at what there is and maybe even get an Exhibition bargain! ( Stuarts are usually there also)

Brian

Yes I've been having a look at when there is a Model Engineering Exhibition I can get to. I've missed Doncaster for this year but I'm sure I could manage a trip down to the Midlands.

I think I've got a 5 step plan ( I sound like I should be in some sort of meeting, 'my names Ben, and I'm an engineer' ).

1. Buy 1 or 2 Stuart kits while they're on offer.

2. Get myself to the next local club open day and join.

3. Acquire a lathe of some description.

4. Make lots of swarf on bits of scrap.

5. Attempt my first Stuart engine.

I've had a look at some of the simple 'beginner' engine projects and they all seem to be oscillating engines. I'm sure this would be the sensible place to start but they just don't do anything for me. I much prefer slightly more scale looking engines.

Edited By Ben Charlton on 24/07/2019 15:30:33

Edited By Ben Charlton on 24/07/2019 15:31:04

Edited By Ben Charlton on 24/07/2019 15:31:31
24 July 2019 at 15:36 #420771
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
Certainly sounds like a plan Ben!

Brian
24 July 2019 at 15:40 #420772
Former Member
Participant
@formermember19781
[This posting has been removed]
24 July 2019 at 15:49 #420774
Martin of Wick
Participant
@martinofwick
| it's not far off the price of a brand new one. Will certainly keep it under consideration though.

Yeah, but no but, yeah but…. look at what you are getting – slotted cross slide, the crappy plastic headstock gears replaced with metal, decent tool holder etc. .

Not an agent for the vendor, but if I didn't already have that type lathe, I would get it in a heartbeat. At least some of the worst issues of 7×14 have been addressed. Surprised it is still available.

| I much prefer slightly more scale looking engines….

try this site, **LINK**

The de Waal plans look a little confusing to start with, but are ok when you get used to them, plenty of scope available and you can scale up or down as required.
24 July 2019 at 16:22 #420782
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
If you do fancy the S50 then you don't have to machine the base, good bit of filing practice is all that's needed

Edited By JasonB on 24/07/2019 16:34:34
24 July 2019 at 16:24 #420783
roy entwistle
Participant
@royentwistle24699
I always thought that Stuart engines were designed to be built using lathes like the old treadle Drumond No milling machines in those days

Roy
24 July 2019 at 18:11 #420808
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
The articles on how to make a 10V with hand tools only has been published twice in ME. Good idea to get along to a club as although not all have machines there will be advice on what to buy and perhaps something for sale. You can exchange information much faster face to face though there is still a lot to be gained from reading this forum and ME. You might be able to get some back issues where people have reviewed their lathes for some additional advice on whatever you think of getting.
24 July 2019 at 19:25 #420813
Roger Clark
Participant
@rogerclark
There's a chap, Andrew Whale, has been doing a series of youtube videos creating small Stuart engines Learning Turning, he's using a mini lathe and then eventually a mini mill but his first Stuart engine, after an oscillator was an S50. Worth while following his journey.
24 July 2019 at 19:27 #420814
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The S50 articles that were in the mag some time ago are still available on this site, just change the last number in the URL to get part 2, 3 etc.

I made my 10V on a Unimat3 so should be easy enough on a 7×14

Edited By JasonB on 24/07/2019 19:28:07
24 July 2019 at 21:37 #420828
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
Well, given those last few messages I have completed step 1! I feel I may have got a bit carried away though.

I've ordered a 10V as a first project, as well as an S50 and a D10 as a second and third. Oops! When they arrive I'll start going through the plans and converting from imperial to metric. I'm young(ish) and metric is far easier for me to work with. Should keep me going for the next year or 2 anyways!
25 July 2019 at 20:33 #420969
Ron Laden
Participant
@ronladen17547
I dont know the first thing about stationary engines but I stumbled across the Stuart website this afternoon. I was surprised at the range of engines they do and impressed with the un-machined casting kits, I didnt look closely at the more expensive larger engines but had a look at some of the smaller ones. I also thought that the casting kits would just be a set of castings but as I am sure a lot of you guys know they come with the brass and steel bar stock, drawings, gaskets and fastenings etc, very impressed with that.

Edited By Ron Laden on 25/07/2019 20:34:33
25 July 2019 at 20:52 #420970
Former Member
Participant
@formermember19781
[This posting has been removed]
25 July 2019 at 21:39 #420977
Ben Charlton
Participant
@bencharlton53151
I'll be sure to post some progress (and inevitable cock ups) when I make some. That's a step closer though. I've now agreed the purchase of the Amadeal lathe that was on the classifieds, I believe courtesy of the same Ron that's posted above. It would have been too far for me to travel while juggling work and young kids but fortunately Ron is travelling North before long and kindly agreed to meet up somewhere.

Ron, if you're curious about the Stuart kits, mine arrive tomorrow. I could have them in the car when I meet you so you can have a look and see what they're like in the metal so to speak.

I won't start on those kits just yet though. I'll see if I can beg some scraps of Ali or steel bar from work to practice some basic turning and shaft/ bore fits etc. Fortunately I work for an engineering company and work on Solidworks all day, I just went the Uni route so never did any practical machining!
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