Metal spinning a deep cup

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Metal spinning a deep cup

Home Forums Workshop Techniques Metal spinning a deep cup

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  • #785750
    Oily Rag
    Participant
      @oilyrag

      Hello all!

      I am looking for some advice on ‘metal spinning’ in the lathe – something that I have never had reason to do in some 60 years of engineering.

      The Job:

      Is to make a ‘dirt cover / grease retainer / component retainer’ for a 5 roller sprag clutch. The clutch body is 1.760″ (44.75mm) dia and the flange needs to be 0.711″ (18mm) deep. A Bendix gear will be retained by 2 ‘half moon’ plates positioned inside the cup and will be driven/released by the sprag, the whole assembly retained by peening over the rear of the clutch body.

      I checked the forum for any earlier references to metal spinning and found Nigel Graham’s July 2024 contribution detailing his method for a boiler flangeplate which showed how he went about spinning his plate using a former and a copper bar in the tool post with lots of AFB lubricant! His flange was only 3/8″ deep and formed from a much larger diameter – which looked good but will I be able to form one as deep as 18mm? (on a 45ish mm diameter) What material is best to use? (note: the half moons will take up the end bearing surface form the bendix gear) I’m thinking along the lines of 16g mild steel or aluminium.

      I would appreciate any suggestions or comments!

      Martin

       

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      #785754
      bernard towers
      Participant
        @bernardtowers37738

        Whilst I have only done it half a dozen times for items in brass and copper I was amazed at how easy it was as long as you continually anneal the blank.

        #785772
        DC31k
        Participant
          @dc31k

          Consider why an item might be produced by metal spinning as a conscious choice amongst the many alternative ways it might be produced.

          Two immediate reasons are economy of material (starting weight vs finished weight) and economy of tooling (one former to make one part or one former used for 1000 parts).

          For a one off, starting with a 1″ long piece of 45mm diameter aluminium and removing the excess by turning and boring could be faster and cheaper than trying to spin one. Remember you need to make the former over which the item is spun as well as make the tooling and toolrest to do the spinning.

          Compare the high cost of a piece of large diameter solid copper bar from which to hew the flange plate against the minimal cost of the aluminium stock you would need and you can see why the flange plate is not a good comparison to your own situation.

          You can look on the Internet Archive and find old textbooks about metal spinning.

          https://archive.org/search?query=metal+spinning

          #785796
          SillyOldDuffer
          Moderator
            @sillyoldduffer

            Ages ago I watched a short clip on telly showing a metal spinner who made it look extremely easy!  TalkingPictures show old ‘Look at Life’ and short industrial training films: it was in one of them.

            What I remember:

            • Big lathe
            • A hefty woodworking style rest with a peg, not a toolpost
            • The tools were about an inch in diameter and two or three feet long, allowing the operator to apply a lot pressure.
            • Don’t recall any lube.
            • Nor any mention of annealing, though that must be essential.   In the film, the blank was simply chucked up, and opened out with a few hefty sweeps.   The effort looked considerable, done by a sturdy man applying plenty of leverage.  Don’t remember what the item was, bowl shaped about a foot across, maybe for a brass band.

            I suspect if I tried it, £500 quids worth of metal would be crumpled hopelessly in a few minutes!  Bernard’s comment is encouraging though – I should try it.

            Dave

            #785797
            Tony Pratt 1
            Participant
              @tonypratt1

              I’ve done it once in my 70 years, it was a flat steel blank which had to end up as a spherical end cap for a beer dispenser tower tube.

              From distant memory a steel male former was held in a 4 jaw chuck, the blank was held against the former by a revolving centre.

              I think we had some sort of ball race attached to a piece of bar fitted into the tool post and then the revolving blank was ‘spun’ into shape against the former by pressure from the ball race.

              I actually think it went surprisingly well and the free edges were trued up in a second operation to achieve a clean surface for brazing.

              Tony

              #785798
              Grindstone Cowboy
              Participant
                @grindstonecowboy

                The only thing I know about metal-spinning (and why I’ve never tried it) was a graphic description of the personal damage that can result from a spinning disc coming off the machine related to me by a chap who was involved in making copper hot water cylinders. So be careful!

                Although I have seen various videos that make it look ridiculously easy…

                Rob

                #785800
                Clive Brown 1
                Participant
                  @clivebrown1

                  If I were interested in experimenting, I’d perhaps try spinning, but if my main priority was to finish up with a good component in good time, then I’d surely machine from a piece of bar.

                  #785802
                  JasonB
                  Moderator
                    @jasonb

                    Another one who has only had the need to do it once. Steel just over 2″ dia with a 3/8″ return. Think it was 22 or 24g

                    I turned a hardwood former and held a ring spanner in thetoolpost and used the hard chromed convex part of teh ring as my tool.

                    PICT0067

                    I have needed deeper cups a couple of times but took DC’s option of turning to about 1mm thickness from solid, then put it onto a wooden former to finish turn to 0.5mm thick wall and base, this one is stainless 303

                    DSC03086

                    A soft grade of aluminium or spinning brass may be easier than steel. This is a nice deep piston spun by a pro from spinning brass that came with the castings

                    20220628_184020

                    #785818
                    Andy Stopford
                    Participant
                      @andystopford50521

                      I’ve only done it a few times – I found that, at least for a simple boot polish tin lid sort of job, fortune favours the brave. A single good hard yank with the tool will flip the rim over perfectly. Do it too timidly and you’ll get a pie crust.

                      I’m not too sure about using soft materials – I remember having a real struggle with soft aluminium, requiring numerous annealings, in an attempt to make a pair of headlamp trims. It looked pretty rubbish, and wouldn’t polish to look even vaguely like the original chromed items, so I used hard un-annealed brass sheet and it was much easier (and looked spot on when I’d had it chromed).

                      1mm-ish steel worked OK too.

                      #785820
                      JasonB
                      Moderator
                        @jasonb

                        That commercially spun one was certainly a soft brass, you can see a few bits of swarf on the tool holder where I had to true it up, curly not the chips you tend to get from the harder brasses.

                        20220724_120429

                         

                         

                        #785825
                        Oily Rag
                        Participant
                          @oilyrag

                          Thank you every one who has commented!

                          I will give it a go using the clutch body as the former, I have also found in my ‘bits that may come in useful one day’ box a roller cam follower that must be 40 years old and never been used for its original purpose! This I can mount in my toolpost to get me started. The clutch body has a 12mm shaft coming out of it (its the guide for the Bendix gear and engages in the gearbox housing to provide an outrigger support) which I will use as the centre register for the tin plate. By putting a tube over this and then using a live centre that will (?) hold the plate firmly (??).

                          I had considered a number of options, one being a threaded cap that screws onto the clutch body and also a turned cup with small mush heads holding it on or even just peening it over but there are limitations of clearance between the clutch and the cylinder block casting. The original sprag clutch was a formed steel cap then peened over at the rear of the body.

                          To reduce the length of the cup I have also considered grooving the outer diameter of the clutch body to allow a rolled retention.

                          Again, thank you every one who has contributed. Hopefully I can post some pictures of the component – both original and finished ‘new’ product.

                          Martin

                          #785855
                          Nigel Graham 2
                          Participant
                            @nigelgraham2

                            As you have cited me – for which I thank you for the compliment – I should amplify that.

                            It was not a “boiler plate” as such but a plate for covering the boiler’s lagging. It is made from thin sheet-steel, ex-domestic-appliance material.

                            It is eight inches diameter with a half-inch flange so the amount of metal-distortion necessary is relatively low.

                            Also, this was done on quite a hefty lathe, a Harrison L5, in lowest gear; so not too excessive a load. The feed was entirely by hand using the rack and pinion saddle drive.

                            Conventional lathes are not made for spinning, and although they might accept rare, small items in thin, soft metal it is not good to do it very often. It puts quite unfair loads on the machine, heavier than in normal turning. Proper spinning-lathes are much stronger for their diametral capacities.

                            I would not have tried it on the Myford lathe even though it will accommodate that diameter in the gap.

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