How would you do this?

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How would you do this?

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  • #771960
    moonman
    Participant
      @moonman

      Hi chaps,

      I am building a PCP air rifle, something I’ve wanted to do for a while.

      The main breech block requires a flat bottomed blind hole for the hammer to slide in to open the valve. The dimensions are 12mm wide by 115mm deep.

      I have an idea on how I would achieve this, I’m thinking I drill it out to 11.8mm or so. I then tackle the flat bottom with a flat bottom drill and then ream it out to 12mm.

      But is there a better way? I’d love to bore it but I just don’t think it’s possible over that dimension. Any imperfections in the channel will impact the hammer which will in turn cause inconsistency upon firing the rifle.

      How would you tackle it?

      I only have a 7×14 mini lathe so bonus points for answers that suit that machine.

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      #771965
      Grindstone Cowboy
      Participant
        @grindstonecowboy

        A D-bit after drilling to something fairly close to the finished size?

        Rob

        #771968
        Michael Gilligan
        Participant
          @michaelgilligan61133

          I know next to nothing about the construction of  PCPs but I would look at making a through-hole and then plugging it.

          MichaelG.

          .

          Edit: __ for others who might be equally naive, this page has some exploded [!] diagrams:

          https://brocock.co.uk/user-manuals/#rifle-diagrams

          … in refreshingly-excellent detail *****

          #771990
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            That was my first though too Michael, as any off the shelf reamer won’t get all the way to the bottom, even a machine reamer will stop 1 to 1.5mm short at that diameter.

            If it can’t be plugged then I would bore to a reasonable depth 11.7 and use that bored and hopefully true hole to guide a drill the rest of the way in. Ream with a 12mm machine reamer and then make a D bit from 12mm silver steel to do the last couple of mm

            #771991
            Diogenes
            Participant
              @diogenes

              What Michael said – I might look again at the design of this component.

              (- if it’s a blind hole how does the striker depress the valve?)

              – does it need to be closed – can’t the valve housing close the end?

              – can you use a shorter hammer/travel ?

              – cut a bigger hole and bond in a tube?

              #772099
              moonman
              Participant
                @moonman

                Hi all,

                Thanks for the replies, I’ll try and address them.

                Can I plug it? No not really as it will be holding back up to 200 bar of pressure.

                It’s not a true blind hold, there will be a 4mm hole drilled from the other side however this will be off center. This is where the valve stem will be.

                I could bond in a tube, I did think about doing this is bearing bronze but I want that as a plan B.

                #772107
                Tony Pratt 1
                Participant
                  @tonypratt1

                  Does it truly have to be a square corner right at the bottom? Not the best of things to do as you have discovered. Does something go all the way down to the corner?
                  Tony

                  #772108
                  Grizzly bear
                  Participant
                    @grizzlybear

                    Hi,

                    German engineering.

                    https://hw100tuning.co.uk/guides-hw100

                    #772113
                    Vic
                    Participant
                      @vic

                      As an aside. While both the bought PCP’s I had, had 200 BAR air cylinders the regulator ran at only about 60 BAR. You can use a PCP without a regulator but they’re much more consistent with one and use less air. Just a thought.

                      #772142
                      moonman
                      Participant
                        @moonman
                        On Tony Pratt 1 Said:

                        Does it truly have to be a square corner right at the bottom? Not the best of things to do as you have discovered. Does something go all the way down to the corner?
                        Tony

                        It does not have to be square at the corners, I can put a boss on the end of the hammer at a smaller diameter. That is a good thought.

                         

                        On Vic Said:

                        As an aside. While both the bought PCP’s I had, had 200 BAR air cylinders the regulator ran at only about 60 BAR. You can use a PCP without a regulator but they’re much more consistent with one and use less air. Just a thought.

                        I will be running a reg but this will be at 100bar (approx). Even so if the reg ever failed I want the rifle to be safe at the intended SWP throughout the design.

                         

                         

                        #772211
                        Vic
                        Participant
                          @vic

                          100 BAR sounds quite high but I’ve not built a PCP. I did make a new regulator for my Feinwerkbau though. That ran at around 60 BAR as did my Anschütz. If I remember correctly I got about 100 shots out of each fill.

                          #772237
                          SillyOldDuffer
                          Moderator
                            @sillyoldduffer
                            On Vic Said:

                            100 BAR sounds quite high …

                            Depends on what the design is intended to do.  Many factors, some conflicting, others overlapping, such as:

                            • Maximise power output – let her blow, no regulator!  Accuracy and consistency not required when killing rats in a trap.
                            • Staying within the UK limit so as not to require a Firearms Certificate (12ft lbs).  Doesn’t require a regulator or high-pressure because the valve limits how much air energy drives the pellet.  (Or should!)
                            • Accuracy and precision: target shooting.   Regulator improves accuracy by ensuring the valve input is always fed much the same pressure; it’s more consistent.  Has to be a good regulator, and consistency can’t make full use of the air charge.  High pressure helps for outdoor long range shooting.
                            • Maximise number of shots per air charge.   Indoor shooting, where excessive power and velocity are an embarrassment.   For this it’s advantageous to keep the pressure low rather than high.
                            • Maximise the number of powerful shots in the field.   High pressure required.   Except, I suggest an air-rifle limited to 12ft lbs or less is unsuitable for hunting anything.   The exception is close-range work by a disciplined good shot; vermin control, not pleasure killing.   Unfortunately, many airguns are owned by undisciplined yahoos who take ill-judged pot-shots at anything that moves.    To my mind inflicting painful sub-lethal wounds on wildlife and domestic animals is both cruel and stupid.   Ask any vet.  As it’s xmas, I’ll reduce the punishment to ‘off with their goolies”!    Seriously though, these idiots are doing their best to get a mostly harmless hobby banned.  Responsible air-gunners should hate them!

                            As always, engineering is about balance.   How good a PHP is perceived to be depends on what the owner needs of it.  Very difficult to make one that performs well in all categories, so some owners swear by them whilst others swear at them.

                            Just a thought, moonman doesn’t want to plug a through hole because he’s worried about the pressure.  Quite right, it needs some thought.  But 200bar (2800psi) isn’t that scary in a reasonably thick mild-steel container, walls say more than 3mm. Thin walled UK domestic Copper water pipe bursts at about 1500psi, and the Sparklets soda siphon I took apart had Mazak innards and a 900psi CO₂.   Look the formula up and do the sums, and maybe increase the safety factor by going for stronger than mild-steel.  But threaded plugs are remarkably strong, this screw-breech thinks 200bar is a sneeze:

                            breechscrew

                            Might also be possible to design a PHP so a failed plug was caught inside the mechanism, making unlikely to escape.

                            How is the air-bottle fixed to the gun?  That connection has to contain 200bar, bet it’s a thread!  The dimensions and number of threads are a clue.

                            Dave

                            #772254
                            Vic
                            Participant
                              @vic

                              I used to shoot FT at targets out to 55 yards (although some wags setting the knock downs went to 60 yards) and as far as I’m aware most regs were around the 60 BAR setting. There seemed no point in going any higher, it just reduced the shot count.

                              Many years ago (25?) some shooters started to experiment with German 10 metre air guns as they reckoned they were better in some aspects (triggers for example) than domestic products. The issue was that they were all 6ft lbs – not powerful enough for the distances involved in FT shooting. The solution was not to increase the air pressure in the regulator but to increase the air space or volume of air available. Increasing the pressure only caused trigger problems. Of the 10m guns I’ve seen (inc schematics) most have negligible air space behind the reg. On early Anschütz guns they simply drilled a couple of holes in the action to increase the volume. It worked well and many championships were won with guns modified like this. A guy I used to know would carry out this modification himself for people in the UK to keep the cost down. The German shooters themselves were apparently horrified that anyone would carry out such work. It was quite a number of years before the German manufacturers of these guns actually brought out their own factory versions. I believe they considered FT to be too much of a niche discipline for them at the time.

                              With the Feinwerkbau I bought about twenty years ago I couldn’t see an elegant way of increasing the air space, until I had an epiphany and made a new, larger regulator body and valve. It worked extremely well. If memory serves though I had  two attempts at the valve, the final version providing about 1cc of additional air space.

                              #772266
                              old mart
                              Participant
                                @oldmart

                                A photo of a drawing of the breechblock would greatly help suggestions on how to make one.

                                #772275
                                moonman
                                Participant
                                  @moonman
                                  On Vic Said:

                                  100 BAR sounds quite high but I’ve not built a PCP. I did make a new regulator for my Feinwerkbau though. That ran at around 60 BAR as did my Anschütz. If I remember correctly I got about 100 shots out of each fill.

                                  The german match rifles you mention are typically 6ft/lbs paper punchers, they aren’t designed for our 12 ft/lbs limit. The regulator build sounds great though, I have cheated in that regard and will be just using a spare I have.

                                  I want this to be around 10-11ft/lbs for outdoor field target shooting. 100 bar is about right for a .177 rifle.

                                  My HW100 runs at 90bar, my EV2 runs at 110bar, my priest is 100bar.

                                  It all depends on volume of the plenum, valving, barrel length and hammer strike force. There’s many variables.

                                  Either way I want the gun to withstand it’s maximum pressure of 200 bar just for peace of mind. It’s very possible for the seal to go years from now and 200 bar will be in the plenum, if that’s too much for the rifle to handle I view that as a big problem.

                                  The current design has a SWP of over 300 bar, the weakest part is actually the Air Arms cylinder I’m using (which is designed to deform and spit it’s o-rings out at 230bar to avoid explosions)

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