Arc versatile milling vice mounting

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Arc versatile milling vice mounting

This topic has 23 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 21 November 2024 at 16:00 by Mick Bailey.

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22 October 2024 at 12:32 #760620
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
I’m after a milling vice for my Astra l2/l4 which has a very narrow table and just two 10mm T-slots that are on 62mm centres. The 80mm Arc versatile is just about low enough but I’d want to clamp it off the edge flange to get it positioned where I’d want it.

In particular, for horizontal milling I’d want to mount it lengthwise to place the jaws at right angles to the cutter, in which case it would need to be clamped at the ends.

Would this be acceptable or should I be looking at a different type?
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22 October 2024 at 13:00 #760627
Gaz
Participant
@gaz13336
I’m sure that cutting forces should be directed against the back jaw. When you rotate the vice they are likely to be directed against the open edge. Also you may lose the ability to get the full functionality of the X axis.

It sounds like you probably are only doing smallish parts, the forces involved won’t be huge but something to consider.

I’m sure you would be able to make it work for you but ultimately i’m also sure it isn’t the best solution.

Happy to be corrected though.
22 October 2024 at 13:08 #760631
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Surely it is simply a matter of which way you bolt it to the table as to whether the load is against the fixed or moving jaw.

I have mounted mine at various angles with the common clamping sets bearing on various points around the flange. I would take it off the swivel and just clamp the actual vice down.

If height is not an issue you could always make a steel sub plate wide enough to use two cast in fixing points to fix the vice to it and long enough for fixings into your tee slots at either end but sounds like height may be an issue.
22 October 2024 at 13:41 #760633
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
On 22 October 2024 at 12:32 Mick Bailey Said:

I’m after a milling vice for my Astra l2/l4 which has a very narrow table and just two 10mm T-slots that are on 62mm centres. […]

Sorry to interfere, but … May I just mention a possible source of confusion:

’Astra l2/l4’ = Astra L2/L4

… but perhaps “everyone” knows that already 🙂

MichaelG.

https://www.suffolksteam.co.uk/astra-model-l4-horizontal-vertical-milling-machine
22 October 2024 at 15:17 #760648
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
I used a lower case L by mistake…..

The reason I mentioned in the original post for mounting the vice lengthwise is to align the cutting forces against the jaw for horizontal milling. Just the same as I would with the shaper. With the back gear on this machine it will power a decent cutter at 35rpm. There’s plenty of clearance in horizontal mode and when possible it would be better to clamp the work directly to the table. The clearance issue is in vertical mode where there’s roughly 7″ between the spindle and table.

There are workarounds to get a lot more clearance, such as turning the vertical head through 90 degrees. After decades of milling in the lathe I’m used to sideways operation.

The main thing I wanted to know is if it’s safe to clamp the vice anywhere on the flange and that’s been answered.

There are much better suited vices than rhe Arc, but in the main the cost is far more than I’d want to pay – Running into £hundreds. If there’s anything around that would do the job better at similar or slightly higher cost than the Arc Versatile, please let me know. Mostly the compact tool makers vices in a similar jaw width are higher than I’d like.
22 October 2024 at 17:08 #760657
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
On 22 October 2024 at 15:17 Mick Bailey Said:

I used a lower case L by mistake…..

I guessed so, Mick

I only mentioned it because ‘participants’ might struggle to find details of the machine.

MichaelG.
22 October 2024 at 17:14 #760664
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Google was quite happy with a copy and paste of the lower case and filled many pages with the right results
22 October 2024 at 17:32 #760667
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
How very clever of it
22 October 2024 at 18:01 #760671
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
Interestingly I’ve not found any pictures or reference to the back geared model – they all appear to be simple 4 step pulley arrangements giving a limited speed range, all of which are rather too high for horizontal milling. Ironic, given that the machine is principally horizontal.

The machine looks to have been uprated by Braddock Machine Tools of Oldham and carries their plate showing 8 ungeared and 4 geared ranges from 35 to 1850 rpm. There’s a tumbler gear arrangement that’s robust and well made, overall providing approximately 40:1 reduction from the 1/2 HP motor.

I just re-checked the height from spindle to table in vertical mode and it’s actually 8″. Using an MT2 end mill holder rather than my ER25 collet setup gives reasonable clearance.
23 October 2024 at 10:56 #760754
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
Out of interest, what are the differences between the Arc Versatile 80mm vice and the similar Vevor product? The Vevor works out £10 less expensive overall delivered.

It’s a pity the Arc vice has that gaudy chrome handle – reminds me of the cheap and nasty 1st generation Chinese stuff from years back.
23 October 2024 at 11:42 #760770
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Mick

ARC is a tool merchant

Vevor is a ‘box shifter’

… That may be all you need to know, depending on how you account for risk.

MichaelG.
23 October 2024 at 11:58 #760772
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The different handle also give a clue that they are made if different factories and the ARC ones are built to a consistant quality that ARC is willing to pay for that means they don’t get much if any returns and that is what has allowed them to get the reputation that sees many members here recommending them.

You have also got someone at the end of a phone should you have any queries
23 October 2024 at 12:58 #760777
Neil A
Participant
@neila
I recently bought the Arc 80mm versatile vice, wish I had bought it when I got the SX2P mill. One thing I notice is that the Vevor vice does not show any tapped holes in the sides of the vice for location stops. My 80mm Arc does have them, but they are not shown on their picture. They are tapped M8. They might not feature on the latest versions, check with Arc if important.

As for the supplied handle, I left it in the box along with the swivel base. I use a 12mm A/F ring spanner to tighten the vice, much nicer feel. I happened to have a 12mm x 10mm ring spanner which also suited the 6mm tee nuts clamps used on that size mill.

Neil
26 October 2024 at 09:31 #761248
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
On 23 October 2024 at 11:42 Michael Gilligan Said:

Mick

ARC is a tool merchant

Vevor is a ‘box shifter’

… That may be all you need to know, depending on how you account for risk.

MichaelG.

I should have saved myself £10 and bought from Vevor – the Arc vice I received yesterday is very disappointing. I also don’t see any difference in finish or construction at all apart from the chromed handle. Even the box is marked with the Vevor description.

People here seem to hold Arc In high regard, but my first order with them gives me a different opinion.

The vice I got had the following problems right out of the box:

1. Significant lateral misalignment of the jaws and poor corner on the fixed jaw.

2. Both screws on moving jaw rattling loose, but not the reason for misalignment.

3. Fixed jaw 0.07mm higher on the right hand side.

4. Right hand screw of fixed jaw very loose.

5. Grey abrasive paste present.

6. Feed screw has area of resistance on each rotation, suggesting bent screw.

7. Burrs on T-bolt faces preventing even seating.

I spent a good deal of time trying to get the jaws aligned but without complete success. The fixed jaw rises on the RHS when the retaining screw is tightened and its impossible to tap down. It appears to me that the jaws were ground with the screw loose and this is how it left the factory.

I need to further investigate the feed screw to determine what’s going on.

I fully realize that this is a low-cost item, but it doesn’t appear to have any quality control either from the manufacturer or supplier. Its a box-shift either way. Others seem to have received much better examples and the videos of people measuring up Vevor vices don’t show the same problems.
26 October 2024 at 09:41 #761249
Emgee
Participant
@emgee
Mick

Pretty sure ARC will accept a return for replacement if you are not happy with the quality, best contact them before making any modifications.

Emgee
26 October 2024 at 09:52 #761251
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
I thought about sending it back, but its a real hassle and suspect that I’d get another random lottery-draw item in return with maybe a different set of problems. I’ll take another look this morning as to whether it can be fixed. I’d rather be machining than fixing, though.
26 October 2024 at 10:29 #761262
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Mick

I can only apologise if I led you astray

Personally, I have only bought a few items from ARC but I greatly admire Ketan for his occasional and very informative contributions to this forum.

MichaelG.
26 October 2024 at 10:56 #761268
Ketan Swali
Participant
@ketanswali79440
Hello Mick,

I am sorry to read about your experience with the ARC vice.

It is from a difference source than Vivor. However, we are aware that Vivor used the description prepared by the manufacturer we use.

Originally, the specification and description were developed by John Stevenson who was a member of this forum, who passed away in 2017. The actual design was based on the more expensive Kurt vice. However, the cheap alternatives which were in the market at the time (around 2015-16) were much poorer in quality and finish to what you see today. So, with JS’s assistance the factory we used made a few improvements, for which we pay more than the average importer/Vivor. It is still a lot cheaper than the Kurt, but no where as good as the Kurt in comparison.

Having said the above, we are happy with the manufacturer we use, and the return rate we get is very low. If we replace the one which you have received, It would be difficult to say if it will be better or worse than the one you have received, or better or worse than the Vevor, or if it will meet your expectations.

I would suggest you call our Ian on Monday to discuss a return or alternative option.

Again, apologies for your experience with the ARC vice.

Ketan at ARC
26 October 2024 at 11:09 #761271
Ketan Swali
Participant
@ketanswali79440
I forgot to add Mick,

The manufacturer we use was approached by Vivor to supply them the same product, at a lot cheaper price, but our manufacturer refused. So Vivor took the description which is on our manufacturers advertising information, and purchased a copy from another manufacturer who was prepared to supply them with the product at a lower price.

There are many factories in China making this vice. How they compare is impossible to say.

Ketan at ARC.
26 October 2024 at 11:23 #761274
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
On 26 October 2024 at 09:52 Mick Bailey Said:

I thought about sending it back, but its a real hassle and suspect that I’d get another random lottery-draw item in return with maybe a different set of problems. I’ll take another look this morning as to whether it can be fixed. I’d rather be machining than fixing, though.

No Mick, you have to play the game! Ring the supplier up and explain the problem. Buying hobby equipment isn’t the same as buying industrial gear.

Hobby equipment is cheap partly because it doesn’t go through the full quality checks applied by a high-end maker. Nor is the maker of hobby kit likely to be operating a TQM system. Thus it’s possible for lemons to slip out.

Making the customer the inspector saves a lot of money. Factory inspectors are costly, adding £££ to a price hobbyists are extremely unwilling to pay. Have a look at a Bison or Kurt catalogue!

When a customer gets a lemon from a UK hobby supplier, he’s protected by replace or refund. Unfortunately putting a serious problem right means he has to contact the supplier, which is a pain. But I’d be amazed to hear that Arc failed to sort this one out. Another reason for contacting the supplier is they need to know they might have been sent a bad batch! They won’t want to send out dozens of duds, and they will certainly wish to discuss a generic problem with their supplier. They will only know there’s a problem if Mick rings them!*

Dave

* I see Arc posted whilst I was correcting typos.
26 October 2024 at 13:20 #761291
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Things like uneven chamfering and the Odd burr are one of the reasons far eastern stuff is cheaper, might look a bit unsightly but a chamfer like that won’t stop the vice working. I’ll take a picture later of a Myford item purchase from the recent Midlands show that also has a big burr on it so it is not just the cheap stuff that has those issues.

A bit of tapping with a Nylon mallet has always got my jaws close enough to feel level to the touch with a finger and my 80mm has done quite a bit of work like that on the CNC. Just put a DTI over the tops of the jaws and 0.01 to 0.02 difference but it works. This is something that needs doing each time you remove one or both of the jaws as there is a good amount of play around the screws

Mine gets a bit tight if swarf gets blown in but turns OK, maybe that is down to the big chrome wrench.
26 October 2024 at 13:53 #761296
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
It isn’t the uneven chamfer thats the main problem. Whilst the jaws will align with the screws removed, as soon as they’re moderately tightened they shift out of position considerably and won’t tap into position. I can see that the screw heads are not anywhere near centred in the counterbores and this is perhaps the source of the problem.

The binding screw is down to a combination of wobble in the outer collar and a slight angle of the surface where it bears. It needs a better collar machining and the casting squaring up.

One aspect that is good is that the top surface where the moving jaw operates is reasonably parallel with the base on both sides to within 0.01mm. This at least means that anything clamped will machine true enough. If I can get the jaws aligned and fix the collar issue it would be a good vice for my machine – its a really good fit on my table and gives adequate clearance.
27 October 2024 at 18:05 #761477
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
The jaw misalignment when the screws are tightened is down to the holes for the securing screws being wrongly positioned, but in addition instead of being counterbored with a flat bottom, the holes are just drilled. The tapered seating causes the screws to self-centre and displace the jaw. I tried clamping the fixed jaw whilst tightening the screws , but the jaw shifts as soon as pressure is removed

What this vice particular vice needs is either a carbide cutter to flatten the counterbores (which I don’t have), or washers machining with one flat side and the other cone-shaped to allow the jaw to be lightly clamped then tapped into position before final tightening. I suppose another way would be to grind the seat flat.

I didn’t have enough time today, but tomorrow I think I’ll machine up some washers to give the screws a flat seating.
21 November 2024 at 16:00 #765822
Mick Bailey
Participant
@mickbailey28509
I thought I’d better post an update:

As soon as Arc opened on the Monday following me posting about my dissatisfaction, I had a call from them expressing concern for the issues and an offer to exchange it at their cost. Also was the suggestion that I may care to visit their premises and select a vice that’s satisfactory to me.

The previous day though I’d done some more work to get the jaw alignment as I wanted and was happy with the result, so decided to keep what I’d got.

I’ve used the vice quite a bit since and it’s maintained accuracy to within 0.01mm in all directions.. Even using the vice with the jaws in line when horizontal milling there’s no slippage and no need for anything other than moderate tightening.

Given the response from ARC I’ve since bought a milling clamp set and some drills from them, all of which have been excellent.
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