Three-wire and two-wire power transmission lines

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Three-wire and two-wire power transmission lines

Home Forums The Tea Room Three-wire and two-wire power transmission lines

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  • #752199
    Nealeb
    Participant
      @nealeb

      My own background is in electronic engineering but this is a question more for electrical power engineers, perhaps. I get the impression that there are some of those here.

      I live in moderately rural South Devon and currently on holiday in the even more rural West coast of Scotland. I am confused by some of the overhead power cables I see in both areas. These are often three cables, on relatively small insulators, so I guess relatively low voltage three-phase distribution. However, from time to time, I see a branch taken off with only two wires, and no transformer obvious. Why two wires? One phase and neutral – but where does the neutral come from? Recently, I saw two sets of three-wire lines running roughly parallel, maybe 100m apart at that point – I presume that they diverged at some point out of my view. Between them and apparently connecting them was a single pair of wires. There was certainly a transformer at one end of the two-wire run with connections to the three-wire run but I could not see where the two-wire lines terminated. And to confuse things further, from that same pole with its transformer there was a four-wire run towards a group of houses. I guess three-phase plus neutral derived from the transformer? That one I can understand but not the three- to two-wire connections!

      Could someone knowledgeable explain, please?

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      #752225
      noel shelley
      Participant
        @noelshelley55608

        I live in a village in the no longer so rural Norfolk, where for reasons that nobody seems to know we only have 2 wires on the poles coming into the village as we only have 2 phases in the village . There are transformers and then 3 wires, 2 phases and a neutral derived from ground. when there is a power failure some houses will be lit others not if 1 phase has gone down. When I needed proper 3 phase I built my own generator from a car engine and a 20Kva 3ph alternator, originally bought to supply a farm in the winter of discontent !  Noel.

        #752248
        SillyOldDuffer
        Moderator
          @sillyoldduffer

          Something like this:

          twowires

           

          Advantages of 3-phase include reducing the number of wires needed whilst helping to balance the load.   Domestic customers are typically supplied single-phase from a delta/wye transformer, with the delta connected to 3-wire 3-phase, no earth or neutral.   The wye side, has neutral centre-point, which is also earthed.   Typically homes are wired single-phase in balanced groups to one of the three phases, plus an actual neutral wire running back to the transformer, and maybe an actual earth wire as well.  The neutral actively balances the system.

          Out in the sticks, it’s common to find farms and small groups of houses some distance from the transformer.  Feeding them standard domestic single-phase 240V in the same way as local homes wastes wire whilst voltage drop causes poor regulation.  An alternative is to connect distant customers with only two wires across two phases, resulting in a single-phase high voltage with better regulation that needs less copper.  However, at the remote end another single-phase transformer is needed to step-down to domestic single-phase volts. One side of this transformer is earthed, and this also provides neutral.   Not the same load-balancing neutral provided by the wye transformer, but it works well enough for the consumer!  Not unusual for a hamlet to grow big enough for this system to become unsatisfactory, in which case proper 3 phase and with a delta/wye substation will replace it.

          As there are other distribution schemes, I hope the experts won’t shoot me for not explaining their favourite!  (Looks like Noel’s village has one, where the ‘step down’ transformer is centre-tapped to provide two domestic single-phase outputs.)

          Dave

          #752259
          Bazyle
          Participant
            @bazyle

            A relative in Oz has a single wire – yes just the one and a transformer. It is 25kv and ground despite the arid conditions completes the circuit.

            #752373
            Ed Dinning 1
            Participant
              @eddinning1

              Hi, typical rural pole supplies these days are at 11KV (between phases). A 3 phase line is normally run out from the 33/11KV substation. This splits down to a 2 wire system further out. These wires are delta connected and do not have a neutral.

              The local pole mounted transformer steps this down to 240V of which one side of the supply (call it neutral ) is grounded at the pole as well as in the consumers premises. For a high load situation the transformer may be wound for 240/0/240, so giving 240v and 480v supplies

              The ungrounded 11KV supply will continue to operate if a tree or something hits one of the lines, an advantage in rural areas.

               

              In urban areas there is a similar situation but the substation is normally supplied with 3 phase 11KV, again delta connected. The local transformer steps this down to 440v 3 phase, which is fed along the underground cable and topped off single phase 240v for each house, with a 3 phase supply for small businesses. A neutral is provided by an earth plate at the substation to whish the cable sheath is often connected.

              As 3 phase is a balanced system and the currents can cancel, the neutral core in the street cable is often of smaller cross section,

              The 11KV distribution system is fed from a 33KV system, again delta connected.

              Higher system voltages are 66KV, 132KV, 275KV amd 400KV. These are bulk transmission voltages and are neutral connected, often using auto type transformers to reference the system to earth and reduce insulation stress.

              This is a rough description of the UK system, other countries vary and in Australia the SWER (single wire, earth return) is used in some remote areas to save costs

               

              Hope this helps, Ed

               

              I will leave the reader to work out why 2 phase is 240/480V and 3 phase is 240/440 !!!

               

              #756807
              old fool
              Participant
                @old-fool

                Hi on holiday in Iceland some years ago I saw some of their more remote areas also use SWER system. Their distances are nowhere near as vast as OZ but none the less several miles to supply 1 house. You can’t call Iceland “arid” (they make UK look arid)! I was camping at the time so no other details of their system.

                Actually 240/415v 415 is SQR3 (1.7….. another of them silly numbers like PI that never works out) times 240.

                As an aside you all keep talking about 240, now we’re told it’s 230 which gives 400v. However! The supply companies were very cunning. Legally their supply must be within +- 6% of that value so the law was changed so now it has to be within +10% and -4% of 230v. The difference is hard to measure. So nothing actually changed

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