I filled an el-cheapo oil can from Machine Mart with ATF for mine. I still use it on the WM250 that replaced the mini-lathe.

On 27 June 2024 at 11:59 SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

Cruel world that it is, I have yet to find a perfect oil can, and am of the opinion that no such thing has ever existed!  They all leak and cause some sort of mess being filled or in action.

 

I have actually done a bit of research into this recently, and come to the conclusion that old vintage oil cans are less prone to leak than the modern ones like the one in your picture. The reason, according to my extensive research – leaving various oil cans in the Myford drip tray surrounded by various paper towels — is the modern oil cans all have small-bore, parallel spouts like the one in your picture.

The old cans with a large tapered spout, starting out at about a half inch diameter at the can and tapering down to the point at the dispensing end, do not leak.

The problem seems to be (and I stress seems in the absence of definitive testing) that thick viscous oil rises up the narrow parallel spout of the modern cans by capillary action, then gets over the curve at the top of the spout and runs downhill to the tip, whence it dribbles out, creating somewhat of a siphoning action at the same time.

Some oil cans, depending how fast the oil comes out and the design of the tip, dribble healthy droplets straight down onto the telltale paper towel under the end of the spout. Others, dribbling more slowly in more of a sickly ooze than definitive drops, have the oil dribble back down the outside of the spout and run down the outside of the reservoir can on to the strategically placed paper towel under its base. This, you would swear, is caused by the can leaking around the base seam area etc. But multiple oil cans over the years have been tested for leaks, coated with sealant etc etc and still ended up standing in a puddle of their own muck when left standing for any length of time.  Very frustrating as you have found.

But a couple of recently acquired ancient oil cans with the traditional large diameter tapered spout passed the test with flying colours. The spouts are too large at the base to promote capillary action (according to my theory!) All paper towels left unsoiled.

So one is filled with ISO32 hydraulic oil and the other with whatever clean engine oil was leftover from the last oil change and both sit in the Myford drip tray, high and dry and not surrounded by the usual mess. The oil mess in the tray from the bearing drip feeders, it turns out, is minimal once the errant modern oil cans were shunted off and replaced with the period correct good ‘uns as below.

Standing your oil can on a square of paper towel and also wrapping some paper towel around the spout and securing with a rubber band for a few days or weeks will reveal if you have a dripper or a dribbler. (Or if as in one case I had, the old oil can has rust pinholes in the base from moisture that sat there for years at the bottom of the oil, but that is a different issue!)

I’ve long considered that a promising solution to this problem would be to use a nozzle having a central pin to depress the ball and a recess round the outside holding an O ring to seal against the surround.

Probably work best on the end of an L shaper spout fitted to an American Eagle style horizontal trigger, horizontal output oil can. There are couple of sets of plans out there for home shop made versions, one via MEW. The pump design seems to be rather better engineered than the usual suspects, even the old style tapered spout ones which are generally more engineered than the modern versions made for economical production above all else.

Twisting an L shape spout vertical ought to greatly reduce the drip issue when parked.

Inspecting the American Eagle pump design I suspect a cunning modification incorporating the tank vent hole into the pump block in a manner that allows it to be sealed on the final return stroke may be possible. The tank ends up under negative pressure which should suck the oil back. The hard bit being how to detect the last stroke and operate the vent seal without encumbering the operation.

Double stroking of the operating plunger is potentially workable where the pump seals the vent after the odd number strokes whilst the even number stroke lifts the oil into the discharge chamber without delivering anything to the spout. The oil sucked back out of the spout fills (ideally) or part fills the delivery chamber so oil is delivered on the first push.

Clearly the relative volumes of delivery chamber and spout are important if the system is to work and pump oil out rather than just oscillate it up and down the spout. Can’t make up my mind if the system needs a delivery chamber volume of twice the spout volume or whether it will work with a smaller one.

Given that most of the common pump oil cans need a pump or two to get delivery from cold start I’m unsure how much of an operational embuggerance designed in double stroking would be. Seems to me that most of the time one pump, or part pump, is enough anyway. A partial pump ought to behave itself.

Clive

While there’s many cnc machine tools today that do use grease as there lubrication, they’ve been designed from the start to do so. There also well guarded to prevent swarf ingress and are usually on a timed greasing system. That tends to force out any of the inevitable metal particles from wear. For manual machines, it would be almost unheard of to see any machine tool manufacturer recommend grease other than maybe in some spindle bearings. I suppose there could be a few rare machines that might have used it in a few other places though. Oil and more than often enough to help flush out any swarf or contamination is what’s required for some very logical reasons. Using grease would be almost to possibly worse than using no lube at all.

The term “ATF” covers a multitude of fluids. Not all, if not most, are suitable for use in machine tool bearings. Generally they have specific lubrication and extreme pressure requirements. The additives my not be compatable with plain bearing materials. Most small lathes call up ISO 32 hydraulic oil which is not the same.

Use what the maker recommends, not what is to hand…

Robert.

Paul, your question is very dependent on who you ask on here ! A multi grade is sae 10 when cold and sae 40 when hot (85c) – how fast do you work ?  If your near me I will give you some ISO 32. Noel

On 27 June 2024 at 22:15 Nick Wheeler Said:

On 27 June 2024 at 17:23 Paul McDonough Said:

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

Our small machines aren’t really going to care much what we use, as long we use some sort of lubricant.

 

^^^^ This. My 1937 Drummond lathe has been lubricated with nothing but engine oil, mostly 20w-50 grade, since 1967 to my personal knowledge. (It was my dad’s old lathe). Still going strong and still a very accurate lathe with little wear to show for its abuse.

Cutting or filing a small notch in the tip works……sort of. But I’ve not had great results since it’s basically expecting a very low pressure gravity fed application to get enough oil into where it’s wanted. You not only want to oil the part, but with a bit more pressure that helps to force the contaminated oil that’s already there out. After seeing how well the one shot hand pumped oil system worked on my mill the first time I used it, that far higher pressure to inject the oil is much better. I do like Clive’s idea of the pin and O ring. I’ll have to give that some thought.

On 27 June 2024 at 22:15 Nick Wheeler Said:

On 27 June 2024 at 17:23 Paul McDonough Said:

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

Our small machines aren’t really going to care much what we use, as long we use some sort of lubricant.

 

I went with ATF because I had about 3l left over from a car I no longer own, and it’s similar to the recommended ISO 68 hydraulic oil. The additives won’t be used, but the red dye does show that it’s getting to where it’s needed, highlight leaks, and make the sight glasses easier to read. The lathe has been in use for about ten years without signs of distress, and if lasts another twenty years it’s likely my executors will be adding it to the clearance skip.

Saying the additives won’t be used is misleading at best. The additives my not be required but they are present. The problem is that some additives are detrimental to certain bearing materials. Both copper alloys and “white metal” bearings can be corroded by additives. Copper corrosion is of course an issue for machines withe bronze bearings and bushes.
The SAE 32 hydraulic oil has a copper corrosion specification (ASTM D130), see https://www.mobil.co.uk/en-gb/engine-oil/mobil-1/car/nuto-h-32
Note the description mentions general anti-corrosion protection.
A random ATF datasheet (found by Google)
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/525358658A52E8738025848F0006A9FF/$File/bpxe-bgvt3z.pdf
Has no coppor corrosion test and no mention of corrosion protection. Viscosity is similar.

The wrong lubricant is unlikely to cause immediate failure in hobby applications but why run the risk to your expensive machine to save a couple of pounds on oil.

Robert.