Telephone Rentals : Master Clock

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Telephone Rentals : Master Clock

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  • #734240
    Michael Gilligan
    Participant
      @michaelgilligan61133

      I wonder if anyone could advise regarding a couple of parts ?
      I have acquired a TR clock like this one:

      https://youtu.be/atKvGzQCLYA?feature=shared

      and I have EHG Technical Paper 43 … Unfortunately there is no detail in that paper about either the ‘continuity spring’ or the pendulum suspension.

      My suspension is completely missing except for one small sliver of the spring material
      and my continuity spring looks like a rats’ nest !

      If anyone has one of these clocks, I would be most grateful for a sketch or photo of the pendulum attachment … which this ‘economy’ hook hangs upon !

      .

      IMG_9710

      .

      … and any ideas about sourcing a suitable replacement for that ‘continuity spring’ ???

      MichaelG.

      .

      IMG_9633

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      #734241
      Michael Gilligan
      Participant
        @michaelgilligan61133

        Grabbed from the video:

        .

        IMG_9635

        .

        and here is mine !

        .

        IMG_9672

        #734288
        peak4
        Participant
          @peak4

          If you have Facebook access, there is a private group called Synchrome, which might be worth a look
          https://www.facebook.com/groups/405744970060647/

          What make is the clock? I have a couple of ex GPO master clocks, but they are Gents which seem to be a different mechanism.
          LightStraw has lots of synchrome clock info, so it’s worth visiting for general ideas.
          https://www.lightstraw.uk/gpo/clocksystems/pages/docindex.html~
          Most of the lines in the document index form a hyperlink to the spec.

          See also on eBay for some photos
          https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374164722350

          or if you have a Flickr account, and thus FlickrMail
          Have a look HERE, which should display for non account holders.

          What is EHG Technical Paper 43 ?

          Bill

           

          #734303
          Dave Halford
          Participant
            @davehalford22513
            On Michael Gilligan Said:

            I wonder if anyone could advise regarding a couple of parts ?
            I have acquired a TR clock like this one:

            https://youtu.be/atKvGzQCLYA?feature=shared

            and I have EHG Technical Paper 43 … Unfortunately there is no detail in that paper about either the ‘continuity spring’ or the pendulum suspension.

            My suspension is completely missing except for one small sliver of the spring material
            and my continuity spring looks like a rats’ nest !

            If anyone has one of these clocks, I would be most grateful for a sketch or photo of the pendulum attachment … which this ‘economy’ hook hangs upon !

            .

            IMG_9710

            .

            … and any ideas about sourcing a suitable replacement for that ‘continuity spring’ ???

            MichaelG.

            .

            IMG_9633

            Hi Michael,

            Your mangled spring may be made from Beryllium Copper like old 3000 type relay contacts. These could be stroked  back into shape when mangled with a pair of polished smooth grip pliers. Your spring would need a very light touch and squash any hard bends out first. If you hold the spring at a slight angle in the pliers and slide them along the spring it should coil it’s self up again after several goes. Just like curling Xmas present coloured tape.

             

             

            #734305
            John Haine
            Participant
              @johnhaine32865

              Michael, I have a quantity of 0.5mm BeCu shim, happy to supply some for the suspension.  Basically I think there will be brass cheeks soldered on each side at each end with a soldered transverse pin to fit the hooks.  You could also cut the material into thin straps for the other spring depending on the length you need.  I have several metres of 2 inch wide material, sent free as a sample!  More than I could ever use in my lifetime.

              #734314
              peak4
              Participant
                @peak4

                OK when I looked, Michael’s photo of the top of the pendulum rod wasn’t showing.
                This is a screengrab from one of the photos of the clock in eBay, which illustrates the suspension nicely.

                image_2024-06-05_180939143

                The suspension springs on my own Gents clock(s) are a pair, rather than single, look to be blackened spring steel, and are 5/16″ x 10 thou thick.

                Bill

                #734323
                Michael Gilligan
                Participant
                  @michaelgilligan61133
                  On peak4 Said:

                  […]

                  What make is the clock? I have a couple of ex GPO master clocks, but they are Gents which seem to be a different mechanism.
                  […]

                  What is EHG Technical Paper 43 ?

                  Bill

                   

                  The branding on the clock is ‘Telephone Rentals’

                  Allegedly they were made by Gents, although the design is very clearly not the same.

                  EHG is the ‘Electrical Horology Group’ … which is a specialist section of the ‘Antiquarian Horological Society’

                  Technical Publication 43 is one of its many papers, and covers setting-up of said clock.

                  MichaelG.

                   

                  #734324
                  Michael Gilligan
                  Participant
                    @michaelgilligan61133

                    John,

                    Thanks for your very kind offer

                    Before taking you up on it, I will [for everyone’s enlightenment] remove the remaining sliver of spring from its clamp.

                    I’ve had a difficult day, today … but, all being well, should be able to remove it tomorrow.

                    MichaelG.

                    #734329
                    Michael Gilligan
                    Participant
                      @michaelgilligan61133

                      This may be of general interest:

                      http://www.telephonecollecting.org/Bobs%20phones/Pages/TMC/TMC.htm

                      MichaelG.

                      #734330
                      Michael Gilligan
                      Participant
                        @michaelgilligan61133
                        On Dave Halford Said:
                        Hi Michael […]
                        .
                        Certainly worth a try, Dave
                        I don’t have much to lose, and the thing serves no actual ‘spring’ function … it is simply a posh way of providing electrical continuity across a pivoting assembly !
                        MichaelG.

                        Edit: __ apologies for messing-up the quote & my response … I think it makes sense, although untidy … Too tired to do it properly  🙁

                        #734433
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133
                          On peak4 Said:

                          […]
                          This is a screengrab from one of the photos of the clock in eBay, which illustrates the suspension nicely.

                          image_2024-06-05_180939143

                           

                          Until this morning, that was the best image available [many thanks, Bill]
                          … but the perspective is rather strange, making the alignment of the spring look unreal.

                          This is just a further crop from Bill’s capture:

                          .

                          IMG_9342

                          .

                          Hopefully these three images of mine give a better impression of the geometry:

                          .

                          IMG_9714

                          .

                          IMG_9715

                          .

                          IMG_9716

                          .

                          More revelations to follow shortly !!

                          MichaelG.

                          #734436
                          Michael Gilligan
                          Participant
                            @michaelgilligan61133

                            To my utter astonishment … having removed the clamp, and the remaining top portion of the suspension spring … I then looked in the bottom of the case, and found the lower portion jammed behind one of the triangular wooden fillets that supposedly reinforce the corners.

                            Mystery solved, it will be a relatively simple matter to make a replacement.

                            .

                            IMG_9718

                            .

                            MichaelG.

                             

                            #734441
                            Clive Steer
                            Participant
                              @clivesteer55943

                              You might like to make contact with The Clockworks at West Norwood who have a collection of mainly electrical clocks.

                              CS

                              #734452
                              bernard towers
                              Participant
                                @bernardtowers37738

                                I have found that replacing suspension springs with like for like stainless has been quite successful and is more resilient when it comes to being bent incorrectly,spring steel tends to break quite easily in the thinner gauges .

                                #734463
                                John Haine
                                Participant
                                  @johnhaine32865

                                  Looking back through the thread I gave duff info – the shim I have is 0.1mm!

                                  In case you are not aware of it, this site:

                                  https://wp.clockdoc.org/

                                  …has a huge amount of information on electric clocks including TR clocks with lots of photos.

                                  #734465
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133
                                    On John Haine Said:

                                    Looking back through the thread I gave duff info – the shim I have is 0.1mm!

                                    In case you are not aware of it, this site:

                                    https://wp.clockdoc.org/

                                    …has a huge amount of information on electric clocks including TR clocks with lots of photos.

                                    Thanks, John

                                    Yes, I am very familiar with clockdoc … spent a lot of time there before asking here about the ‘continuity’ spring’

                                    I will write to you later about the shim, if I may.

                                    MichaelG.

                                    #734467
                                    Michael Gilligan
                                    Participant
                                      @michaelgilligan61133
                                      On bernard towers Said:

                                      I have found that replacing suspension springs with like for like stainless has been quite successful and is more resilient when it comes to being bent incorrectly,spring steel tends to break quite easily in the thinner gauges .

                                      Might be worth a try … Thanks Bernard

                                      MichaelG.

                                      #734468
                                      Michael Gilligan
                                      Participant
                                        @michaelgilligan61133
                                        On Clive Steer Said:

                                        You might like to make contact with The Clockworks at West Norwood who have a collection of mainly electrical clocks.

                                        CS

                                        Thanks also to you, Clive

                                        James Nye, thereof is Chair of the AHS, and also heads the EHG

                                        I specifically asked here because there are some ex-telephone people on this forum and I had already drawn blanks elsewhere.

                                        MichaelG.

                                        #734484
                                        Dave Halford
                                        Participant
                                          @davehalford22513
                                          On Michael Gilligan Said:
                                          On Clive Steer Said:

                                          You might like to make contact with The Clockworks at West Norwood who have a collection of mainly electrical clocks.

                                          CS

                                          Thanks also to you, Clive

                                          James Nye, thereof is Chair of the AHS, and also heads the EHG

                                          I specifically asked here because there are some ex-telephone people on this forum and I had already drawn blanks elsewhere.

                                          MichaelG.

                                          Just found this.

                                          CLOCKS (taken, with acknowledgement, from the Clock Museum web site)
                                          The Telephone Manufacturing Co Ltd used the trademark Temco for their synchronous and other electric master clocks circa 1935.  Further information provided by courtesy of James Nye (using in part info from the EHG Technical Paper 43).  TMC went public as the Telephone Manufacturing Company (1920) Ltd and The Telephone Manufacturing Company Limited (TMC) was formed in 1924.  After a re-organisation of activities as the Telephone Manufacturing Co. 1929 Ltd.  By 1929 it had absorbed New Systems Private Telephones Limited, which became a subsidiary company and was later renamed Telephone Rentals Limited.  Production of Temco synchronous clocks appears to have started in about 1931 and ended some time after 1952.  Around the same time TMC absorbed Prince’s Electrical Clocks Limited.  The re-engineered Princeps clock became what we refer to as the Princeps New System.  Chronomatic was registered as a trade name in 1935 and frequently appears on the dials of clocks which were also rented out by Telephone Rentals Limited.  The mechanism was moved from its low position to the top of the case in the 1950s, and became known as the High Impulse Transmitter, continued in manufacture until the 1970s.  Telephone Rentals also installed other manufacturer’s equipment, and latterly traded under the name TR Time Services Limited, disappearing within Mercury Communications in April 1990.  During its history, TR acquired Dictograph, another firm that specialised in rentals, mainly of Magneta M36/M37 master clocks.  Telephone Rentals and Dictograph [like many other firms in this business] had a deliberate policy of destroying equipment that came back from rental, I am told usually after two contracts, 30 years at most), and there are therefore far fewer surviving examples of what were once amongst the most commonly installed systems.  For example, the production rate of Magneta clocks was nearly double the annual total of Gent’s.

                                          TMC had several locations, but one main works was at Park Hall in West Norwood, west of the cemetery.  Robson Road runs down the side of the cemetery from Norwood High Street towards the works, and the staff going to work each day down Robson Road referred to it as ‘walking the wall’.  Several people who still live in West Norwood worked there or had relatives that did.

                                          Colin Reynolds, formerly of Gents, has also written to tell me: “Gent used to manufacture master clocks, time products and fire alarm products for Telephone Rentals and badge them with their logo.  I remember designing a fire alarm equipment for them.  They rented out electrical equipment and supplied the service for its maintenance and at Gent we had engineers visit the factory for training.”

                                           

                                           

                                          #734491
                                          Michael Gilligan
                                          Participant
                                            @michaelgilligan61133

                                            Thanks for posting that, Dave

                                            Yes, it’s actually one of the things I had already seen

                                            My clock is the High Impulse Transmitter as mentioned there … Originally I was confused by inevitable ambiguity in that string of words; so it was good to see the explanation!

                                            MichaelG.

                                            #734612
                                            Michael Gilligan
                                            Participant
                                              @michaelgilligan61133

                                              Another small step … I have measured the section of that blued steel suspension spring.

                                              To my mind it looks too thick, but I would welcome opinions

                                               

                                              Width = 9.57mm

                                              Thickness = O.13mm

                                              Pendulum weighs 4.5kg

                                              MichaelG.

                                              .

                                              P.S. __ Can’t be sure, but I think the breakage is attributable to mishandling rather than fatigue.

                                              #734660
                                              John Haine
                                              Participant
                                                @johnhaine32865

                                                3/8″ x 0.005 in the units probably used by the manufacturer.  It does seem a bit thick, though also quite narrow.  I think the Synchronome spring is 5/8″ wide and 4 thou, for about the same bob weight.

                                                #734705
                                                Michael Gilligan
                                                Participant
                                                  @michaelgilligan61133

                                                  Confession:

                                                  The calliper just happened to be set to metric 🙂

                                                  … and I had already weighed the pendulum in kg

                                                   

                                                  Thanks for your thoughts, John

                                                  MichaelG.

                                                  #735630
                                                  Michael Gilligan
                                                  Participant
                                                    @michaelgilligan61133

                                                    Today’s good news … Not only did the taper-pin come-out without breaking the end off the spring but the little collet was equally co-operative.

                                                    In the immortal words of Captain Oates, however:

                                                    I may be some time

                                                    MichaelG.

                                                    .

                                                    IMG_9738

                                                    #735653
                                                    Clive Steer
                                                    Participant
                                                      @clivesteer55943

                                                      Hi Michael

                                                      Your “continuity spring” looks very much like those used in speedometer. I have quite a few but I know some who has even more. If you can publish what size the collet is and the approximate spring diameter I’ll see if I can find a suitable replacement.

                                                      Clive

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