Annealing silver steel rod

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Annealing silver steel rod

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  • #733539
    Engine Doctor ( Phil )
    Participant
      @enginedoctorphil

      Help . Can anyone tell me where I’m going wrong please ?

      I’m trying to anneal a piece of silver steel  rod at 4.1mm dia so that I can drill it to make a gudgeon pin for a small IC engine . i need to drill it to fit Teflon pads in the ends to protect the cylinder walls .

      Ive heated the end of the bar long enough for the piece I need . When mounted in the lathe The center drill drills into the bar about 2 to 3mm then goes blunt as if the steel has gone hard again .

      Any suggestions please . If I cant make this part then the engine is scrap as the pin I intend to make is an odd size to fit the gudgeon pin hole was slightly damaged by a the original pin snapping.

      Thanks in advance

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      #733544
      Fulmen
      Participant
        @fulmen

        IIRC silver steel can be air hardening in very small sizes, try packing it with some larger piece of steel to add some thermal mass.

        #733546
        Roy Vaughn
        Participant
          @royvaughn26060

          Fresh silver steel should be quite workable without annealing, with a quality, sharp, drill.  It’s possible your attempts to soften it have had the reverse effect though I would have thought that unlikely unless you had liquid quenched it.

          #733547
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            It should come in the annealed state and not need any further treatment.

            If it is hard then bring it to red heat and hold it there for a minute or so and then allow to cool as slowly as possible. You may find it better to do it in a small tin of sand which will cool slower than just the small dia bar.

            #733551
            SillyOldDuffer
            Moderator
              @sillyoldduffer

              Possibly a misunderstanding of the process?

              1. Silver Steel from the supplier is soft, and can be turned, drilled, filed and milled without much bother.  Most of the cutting is done in the soft state.
              2. For many purposes, it’s useful to harden the Silver Steel to resist wear.   Silver Steel makes this fairly easy.   The part is heated Cherry Red (750°C) throughout (big lumps take longer to heat through than little ones), then rapidly cooled by plunging into a liquid, normally cold water.
              3. As the quench can make the metal over-hard, leaving it brittle, it’s common to Temper the metal by cooking it in a kitchen oven at about 150°C for 30 minutes.   Then remove and allow to cool naturally.   Tempering relaxes the crystal structure of the metal, making it much tougher, less hard and less brittle.

              If a part has to be worked on after hardening, then grind rather than cut it.   Otherwise, the whole part has to be Annealed heated about 20°C above the alloy’s critical temperature and soak it at that temperature for about 1 hour per cubic inch of metal.    I don’t know what the critical temperature of Silver Steel is, something like 850°C I guess.   I quick look on the web was discouraging in that none of the instructions for heat retreating Silver Steel cover Annealing it.  Almost as if it’s never done!

              Recommended to use an oven for annealing because the temperature and timings are quite critical.   It can be done with a torch but…

              Also, be aware heat-treating isn’t infinitely repeatable.   Each cycle is likely to damage the metal.  For example, quenching in brine from too hot is likely to result in a mass of microcracks, and the only way to fix them is to melt the metal down entirely.

              Dave

              #733561
              Diogenes
              Participant
                @diogenes

                Apologies, but someone has to ask – You are sure it is ‘proper’ Silver Steel and not something else..?

                 

                #733567
                Bazyle
                Participant
                  @bazyle

                  As Diogenes says maybe it is stainless which is notorious for blunting tools.
                  It is also possible that if you are only heating the end of a longer rod perhaps the body is remaining cold and quenching the heated end as soon as you remove the heat.

                  #733568
                  JA
                  Participant
                    @ja

                    If the annealing process is heat to red heat and then slowly cool I suspect than you are not heating it for long enough. The basic rule is that the item should be held at required temperature for one hour per inch thickness to be thoughly heated. That is, in your case, ten minutes.

                    However, would it not be simplier to buy another length of silver steel rod?

                    When it comes to hardening silver steel I wonder if most of us are just producing a hard skin.

                    JA

                     

                    #733578
                    MikeK
                    Participant
                      @mikek40713

                      Don’t leave the rest of the rod attached, it will draw the heat away and make it cool faster than it would otherwise.  As mentioned already, heat to red and cool *slowly*.  Buried in a large bucket of ashes or vermiculite (should be available from a garden center) is good.

                      #733629
                      jaCK Hobson
                      Participant
                        @jackhobson50760

                        Some silver steel is relatively shallow hardening i.e. water quench. However, as noted above, small diameters might still cool quick enough in air to get hard.

                        Shallow hardening steels usually get quite soft at high tempering temperatures. So for some silver steel and other water hardening steels like files, you can just heat below red and it should get soft enough to drill. No need to do the full anneal.

                        Oil and air hardening steels may hold high hardness unless taken up above critical and annealed. O1, A1 are difficult to re-work without annealing.

                        This property makes silver steel and W1 useful for small ad-hoc tools that may need rework – just heat beyong blue, file, re-harden.

                        Try it.

                         

                        Otherwise, the problem may be that, because of small section, it is tricky to cool slow enough just heating an cooling with bare flame in air. Any method to slow-cool should help.

                        #733657
                        Hopper
                        Participant
                          @hopper
                          On Engine Doctor ( Phil ) Said:

                          ..The center drill drills into the bar about 2 to 3mm then goes blunt as if the steel has gone hard again .

                          Cheap Chinese centre drilsl will do that. Combination of mediocre quality high speed steel and poorly ground cutting lips.

                          You don’t need to use a centre drill to start a drilled hole anyway. Common modern practice is to use a stub drill instead. In this case, such a small diameter hole to be drilled, I use a much larger centre drill as a stub drill. You use just the very tip of the large centre drill to make a small divot in the job, say 2mm diameter by maybe half a mm deep. Just enough to guide the tip of you regular drill bit when you start to drill the actual hole into the silver steel. That is all you need in this instance. Then drill on through with whatever regular drill bit you need to use.

                          If you start with a fresh piece of silver steel as supplied that has not been heated up etc. you should have no trouble drilling it with the above method.

                          If you are playing around hardening or annealing silver steel, note too that “cherry” red refers to the very dark red that cherries were back in blacksmithing days and not the bright red of the cherries your girlfriend gets in her cocktails today.

                          And another way of slowly cooling red-hot steel to soften it is to bury it in a bucket of powdered lime while it is still glowing red.

                          But as has already been said, you would be better off starting with a fresh piece of silver steel and machine it in as-supplied condition.

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