steel for cylinders?

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steel for cylinders?

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  • #58991
    peter ravenscroft
    Participant
      @peterravenscroft57700
      hi
       is it posible to use steel insted of cast iron for cylinders if so are there any poblems with its use
      regards
      peter
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      #5297
      peter ravenscroft
      Participant
        @peterravenscroft57700
        #58996
        Stackerjack
        Participant
          @stackerjack
          I know that people use leaded steel for cylinder liners, but have no idea on the performance.
          Most Model Aircraft engines nowadays use steel, but I don’t know what grade it is.
          #58997
          colin hawes
          Participant
            @colinhawes85982
            Hi Peter, you don’t say what the cylinder is for nor the piston material! steam would cause severe rust problems unless stainless is used. I/C engines need a cast iron liner to keep adequate lubrication film although chrome plating has been used.The problem is that soft steel gets picked up causing seizure. Hydraulic cylinders OK.
                                                                                                                                         colin  
            #59000
            Jens Eirik Skogstad 1
            Participant
              @jenseirikskogstad1
              Posted by colin hawes on 20/11/2010 16:01:55:

               I/C engines need a cast iron liner to keep adequate lubrication film although chrome plating has been used.The problem is that soft steel gets picked up causing seizure. Hydraulic cylinders OK.
                                                                                                                                           colin  
               
              No necessary to use liner of cast iron in I/C engine. Use high tensile steel for liner and cast iron for piston. In case you are using piston of aluminium, use cast iron as material for piston ring running on liner of high tensile steel.
               
              For steam engine, use bronze, gunmetal , brass and duraluminium as liner material and piston can be made of bronze, brass, aluminium or some time stainless steel.
               
              As a rule difference material who are runing togheter will last longer than same material who are running togheter.

              Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 20/11/2010 17:41:36

              #59011
              peter ravenscroft
              Participant
                @peterravenscroft57700
                hi
                the cylnders are for a darjeeling steam loco i was thinking of posibly putting a liner of gunmetal or similar with a bronze piston
                regards
                peter
                #59018
                Jens Eirik Skogstad 1
                Participant
                  @jenseirikskogstad1
                  Posted by peter ravenscroft on 20/11/2010 19:42:54:

                  hi
                  the cylnders are for a darjeeling steam loco i was thinking of posibly putting a liner of gunmetal or similar with a bronze piston
                  regards
                  peter

                   No problem..

                  #59023
                  Ian S C
                  Participant
                    @iansc
                    For my hot air/ stirling engines, I generally use steel for cylinders and cast iron for pistons, the exception is one with brass cylinder and aluminium piston with a teflon skirt, and one low temperature type with cast iron for both piston an d cylinder. My aims are, one; minimum fricton, two minimum cost, three whats in he junk box, in that order. Don’t know much about steam engines, but cast iron on steel sounds ok, just don’t go steel on steel. Ian S C
                    #59029
                    Stackerjack
                    Participant
                      @stackerjack
                      The latest idea for Model Aircraft engines, produced by O.S. who make some of the best engines in the world, is to use a brass liner, which is chromium plated. It is known as an ABC setup. (Aluminium piston. Brass liner .Chrome plated).The piston is aluminium and has no rings, but a very small groove wher the ring would normally be. This groove retains a smll ammount of oil, which helps lubrication.
                      The liner has a slight taper, being narrower at the top. The piston is a tight fit in the top of the liner, causing it to be pinched. When running, the liner heats up quickly and expands, allowing the piston to move freely. This also allows the liner to cool down, causing the piston to rub once more……..and so on.
                      #59030
                      Jens Eirik Skogstad 1
                      Participant
                        @jenseirikskogstad1
                        Posted by Jack Rogerson 1 on 21/11/2010 07:20:41:

                        The latest idea for Model Aircraft engines, produced by O.S. who make some of the best engines in the world, is to use a brass liner, which is chromium plated. It is known as an ABC setup. (Aluminium piston. Brass liner .Chrome plated).The piston is aluminium and has no rings, but a very small groove wher the ring would normally be. This groove retains a smll ammount of oil, which helps lubrication.
                        The liner has a slight taper, being narrower at the top. The piston is a tight fit in the top of the liner, causing it to be pinched. When running, the liner heats up quickly and expands, allowing the piston to move freely. This also allows the liner to cool down, causing the piston to rub once more……..and so on.
                         
                         
                        Super Tigre was first to produce the ABC engines..
                         
                        ABC in O.S.engines do not mean Aluminium, Brass, Chrome. Chrome are replaced with other word: Composite. Or in newer word ABN/ABL
                        O.S. Mfg. replaced the chrome plating with nickel plating about 15-20 year since . There are some disadvandages with nickel plating in O.S. engines , it will peel of the liner…
                         
                        See this link: abc link 
                        It is not much we can do with the plating in home workshop, not all folk has acess the plating equipments for home use.
                         
                        The cast iron are good for the steam engines, the piston ring and liner will be made of cast iron. Both will run togheter without sign of abrasion when the steam engine are lubed with steam engine oil.
                         

                        Edited By David Clark 1 on 21/11/2010 11:12:03

                        #59031
                        John Olsen
                        Participant
                          @johnolsen79199
                          They were trying the idea of hard chrome over aluminium back in the late sixties on two stroke motorbikes. It was supposed to be great, but one of my mates was not so impressed when things went wrong and he discovered that the only way to repair such a cylinder was to throw the whole thing away and replace it. Two strokes give their rings a hard life, especially high performance ones with big ports, and when the rings go the resulting sharp edges have no trouble ripping the hard chrome off the aluminium barrel. Meanwhile my little Honda (four stroke) had a cast iron liner, with the usual four oversize pistons available, and if you ran out of those it would have been possible to bore it out and press in a new liner. Give me something repairable anytime!
                           
                          Be a bit careful in steam cylinders with the choice of piston material. If it is something that will expand more than the bore, you need to allow for that. I knew a guy who managed to make one that was fine on air but would not run on steam, it would seize up.  (Aluminium piston) A bit more clearance would fix that, but it is not much fun to take the whole engine down to get at the pistons.
                           
                          regards
                          John
                          #59036
                          Ian S C
                          Participant
                            @iansc
                            Hey John, that sounds like the Villiers 2 stroke I’v got on an alternator, 20-30 miniuts on load and it starts to slow, if you take it of load then OK , leave it a couple of min, it stops dead until it cools. When it was on a lawn mower it would go for ever flat out, just enough air movement to cool it. I suspect that aluminium and any othe metal + steam would be a no no, electrolitic reaction, corrosion, dead engine. Ian S C
                            #59037
                            Dusty
                            Participant
                              @dusty
                              Aaaaargh   ads over posts yet again. it is so frustrating when you have to guess what has
                              been written. I would have thought that it would/should have been sorted out by now.

                              Edited By Dusty on 21/11/2010 10:13:20

                              #59039
                              KWIL
                              Participant
                                @kwil

                                Have not seen an ad over page for months and months, PC problems?

                                #59043
                                Ramon Wilson
                                Participant
                                  @ramonwilson3
                                  As you ‘ve probably seen I have posted a request to David over his matter but I see that onward from Ian SC’s post above this infuriating effect appears to have stopped. Hope this irritating problem can be fixed though as there is some good posts above  totally spoilt
                                   
                                  Ramon
                                   
                                  Oh no it hasn’t

                                  Edited By Ramon Wilson on 21/11/2010 11:05:35

                                  #59044
                                  David Clark 13
                                  Participant
                                    @davidclark13
                                    Hi There
                                    Seems it is ok now.
                                    regards David
                                     
                                    #59045
                                    Ramon Wilson
                                    Participant
                                      @ramonwilson3
                                       
                                      Oh yes it has
                                       
                                      Thanks David, that’s a swift response and much better now but how about a long term fix for this problem  – Is that possible?
                                       
                                      Regards – Ramon

                                      Edited By Ramon Wilson on 21/11/2010 11:18:47

                                      #59049
                                      David Clark 13
                                      Participant
                                        @davidclark13
                                        Hi Ramon
                                        I doubt it.
                                        I think the web designer is on holiday until January,.
                                        Will ask him then.
                                        regards David
                                         
                                        #59054
                                        chris stephens
                                        Participant
                                          @chrisstephens63393
                                          Hi John 
                                          There is a company who will “re-chrome” a barrel, though it is not cheap,  there is a saving to be made over the cost of a new one.
                                          To anyone with a chrome bored two stroke motorcycle, if your bore gets scratched by broken small end or any other form of crud, make extra sure that the crankcase is thoroughly cleaned out before fitting your new barrel!!!! Not personal experience but that of two friends, who should have known better.
                                          chriStephens 
                                          #59057
                                          Ramon Wilson
                                          Participant
                                            @ramonwilson3
                                            Thanks David – let’s hope
                                             
                                            Hi Jens – do you have any idea when Super Tigre first brought out ABC piston and liners.? I have been trying to think which was my first engine of this type – possibly a G15 bought in Singapore in ’66? A high revving, very powerful 2.5cc glow motor in it’s day but an absolute devil to hand start especially on suction feed but on pressure feed providing you didn’t flood it  now that was a different matter.
                                             
                                            Regarding liner / piston material the three engines I have recently built have all had cast iron pistons with, in turn, EN1a, cast iron, and high tensile steel liners. All have proved very compatible but the engine that has bedded in best with exceptionally good compression and piston fit is the one with the liner made from EN1a.
                                             
                                            Since I made them I have  found an article by George Aldrich which I long ago filed away extolling the merits of cast iron pistons in leaded steel liners. Until this surfaced this had been well forgotten so I was pleased to find it at this time. As it has much to commend for this function it is the way I shall go for my next small IC project which I hope to finally be able to get onto in a couple of weeks from  now.
                                             
                                            Regards – Ramon
                                            #59068
                                            Jens Eirik Skogstad 1
                                            Participant
                                              @jenseirikskogstad1
                                              Posted by Ramon Wilson on 21/11/2010 12:48:54:

                                              Thanks David – let’s hope
                                               
                                              Hi Jens – do you have any idea when Super Tigre first brought out ABC piston and liners.? 
                                              Regards – Ramon
                                               
                                               Belive about last of 1970 to begins or 1980, not sure when..
                                               
                                              I will selected the traditional material for model engines socalled “Iron engines” instead the excotic material who are difficult to make in home workshop.
                                              #59071
                                              Dusty
                                              Participant
                                                @dusty
                                                Peter
                                                   In answer to your original query, steel as a cylinder liner in a steam loco is a no no. You will suffer with severe rusting problems, and a compatable material for the piston will also be a problem, as has already been mentioned differential expansion will rear its ugly head. My opinion is that the work involved in fitting gunmetal liners is not worth the agravation. My current loco has cylinders of slightly larger size than that of the Darjeeling. They are of cast iron with cast iron pistons, they have two iron piston rings in each piston. The cylinders were honed as Ray has indicated in his article. When tried on air I needed 50psi to get the thing moving, after a few minutes the pressure was lowered and after 15 mins the chassis ticked over on 5psi. I did make sure that plenty of engine oil (car) was introduced during this period. When the front cover was removed I had a beautiful bore in the cylinder. My advice stick with the cast iron.
                                                #59199
                                                peter ravenscroft
                                                Participant
                                                  @peterravenscroft57700
                                                  thanks for all the advice i’ll get some cast irion or a casting set
                                                  regards
                                                  peter
                                                  #59202
                                                  Ian Abbott
                                                  Participant
                                                    @ianabbott31222
                                                    ‘Bout thirty years ago General Motors tried to build a four cylinder aluminium (or should it be “aluminum”) block with chromed cylinders.  Another one of GM’s abject failures, it proved impossible to bed the rings into the bores.  I think that it was used in the Chevy Chevette or some similar small car attempt before they got the Japanese to build the small stuff for them.  Anyway, the cars drank oil and most finished up on the scrap pile at an early age, the bodies weren’t much good either.
                                                     
                                                    Ian 
                                                    #59215
                                                    Stackerjack
                                                    Participant
                                                      @stackerjack
                                                      Somewhere in the late ’70s or early ’80s an Austrian company brought out a limited range of model aircraft engines which were designated AAC,
                                                      This was an Alumium liner, Chrome plated and Aluminium piston.
                                                      I actually still have one, but can;t remeber the name. It was 0.45 cu. in. volume, and flew my flying boat for many years.
                                                      If anyone really wants to know the name, I’ll dig it out.
                                                      Jack
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