Another ‘What Mill’ Question

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Another ‘What Mill’ Question

This topic has 30 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 13 September 2010 at 13:20 by ChrisH.

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4 September 2010 at 21:44 #55118
ChrisH
Participant
@chrish
I have read most of what has already been written in numerous threads about about ‘what small mill to buy’ but am still unclear which mill to buy as a ‘first milling machine’.

Like others before me I am constrained by a) price, b) space and c) weight. I would dearly like an expensive heavy machine but cannot entertain it at the moment.

Whilst I know that several suppliers supply basically the same machines with different name at varying prices, for the sake of simplistically I am comparing two Warco machines to make an initial decision on which way to go.

Warco do the Mini Mill/Dill at £475 and the WM14 at £675, more or less. Both machines seem to offer roughly the same in terms of capacity of drill/mill diameters, size of table and travels, both are roughly the same in power of the motor and in weight, if anything the former has a slightly larger size motor and weight, but the former is £200 cheaper than the latter. Both, for me, would fit the bill in terms of cost, size and weight though not necessarily in that order!

One has a tilting column the other a tilting head both of which option others have, probably very correctly, advised getting the head lined up correctly then locking it and not touching it again. Sounds sensible to me.

So, what is the difference between the two that warrants a £200 price difference and why should I pay the extra?

Or putting it another way, if I bought the Mini Mill/Drill why would I be kicking myself for not buying the WM14?

Looking forward to hearing others comments on their experiences, I hope!

Regards, Chris

Edited By ChrisH on 04/09/2010 21:46:40
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4 September 2010 at 21:44 #5172
ChrisH
Participant
@chrish
5 September 2010 at 23:23 #55168
Steve Garnett
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@stevegarnett62550
Since nobody’s picked up on this, I’ll make a couple of observations, but they are not based on experience with either mill – I have access to a Warco Major Mill, but that’s neither here nor there, really. It works fine for what we use it for, but it’s not going to set the world on fire, quite frankly.

Looking at the specs for both of the mills you mention, I get the impression that the WM14 has probably got a better-built spindle assembly – they go on about that in the data sheet, but they don’t mention it specifically for the Mini Mill/Drill. But I would say, from my experiences with milling spindles in general that you always go for the better-spec ones – simply because if nothing else, they will last longer. I realise that in this instance, you can’t take the general advice of going for the heavier mill, but the same principle applies to spindles, believe me – take the better one!

The other thing that isn’t clear is whether the price for the WM14 includes the base – it certainly doesn’t for the Mini Mill/Drill, and unless you are going to bench-mount it, you’d have to take that into account. It would certainly justify the greater cost of the WM14 on it’s own. Also mentioned is a toolbox and tools, which isn’t mentioned for the Mini.

Hope that’s a little help…

Edited By Steve Garnett on 05/09/2010 23:25:37
6 September 2010 at 09:30 #55175
Axel Bentell
Participant
@axelbentell
I suspect the Mini version has nylon gears in it?! THey do work, but not as long or as accurate as metal! I´d suggest you check out a Sherline mill also the´re high quality and will do bigger jobs than most think, chek out tryally on you tube, bad english but a good machinist! Also Taig is a well like machine, but I never seen one!
6 September 2010 at 09:33 #55176
Axel Bentell
Participant
@axelbentell
With a Sherline you get the benefit of being able to mount the mill vertical slide on the lathe, thus being able to mill long shafts and like.
6 September 2010 at 10:24 #55178
ChrisH
Participant
@chrish
I had thought you were right Steve in that the spindle assembly is probably more robustly built on the WM14 which is a definite plus factor, plus it has a digital RPM readout and some tools (plus toolbox) all of which is probably worth the extra 200 quid but whether I can justify it is another matter! I will take a look at Warco’s open day I think, plus ask the question raised by Alel on nylon or metal gears. I don’t think the stand comes with the WM14 but as you say, it isn’t clear. I was planning a bench mount installation anyway.

I have had a quick look at the Sherline but I think they are too small for my needs.

What would be very nice is someone with experience of either the mini mill/drill or the WM14, or both, could jot down their experiences of actually using them. I would be most grateful.
6 September 2010 at 12:59 #55184
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The stand and the swarf tray are both extras

http://www.warco.co.uk/productimages/documents/1P55%20warco%20web.pdf

Jason
6 September 2010 at 14:29 #55190
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
I may be wrong but Sherline products seem to have alloy slideway components and appear to be VERY lightly built.?
6 September 2010 at 14:31 #55191
Axel Bentell
Participant
@axelbentell
they are hard anodized, its hard like emery cloth.
6 September 2010 at 20:39 #55203
Gray62
Participant
@gray62
Beware of the mini mill, whether it be Warco, or other supplier, it is almost guaranteeed that the gear system employs nylon or some other ‘plastic’ gear train. I have a mini mill clone and stripped the gears within a few weeks. Since then I have converted it to belt drive and CNC for small parts such as clock wheels etc.

Which mill you choose depends very much on what you want to machine. I have achieved a great deal of milling operations on my 6″ swing lathe with a vertical slide, similar to the Myford type although a ‘homebrew’ equivalent.

I have subsequently purchased a huge Ajax AJT4 which far exceeds my needs but is stable and extremely efficient at everything it does.

So, evaluate your requirements and then evaluate what is available, both new and second hand (fleabay).

If you are considering a Warco offering, then I would heartily recommend a visit to their open day next weekend. Roger and his team are very helpful and knowledgeable and will give good advice based on your requirements.

I have no personal alliegience to Warco but my past experience with them has far exceeded my expectations and I have no hesitation in recommending them as a supplier.
6 September 2010 at 21:00 #55209
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
I think I will stick with cast iron, aluminium even when hard anodised cannot be stiff enough.
6 September 2010 at 21:12 #55212
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
The WM series has a small brass helical gear driving a plastic gear for the primary reduction.

Just pulled one down tonight to convert this part of the drive to belt drive, partly to get away from the brass plastic combination, partly for quietness and partly because in CNC mode 2250 max revs is not enough.

The Mini mill shares the same internals as the C3 lathe and it’s possible to buy metal gears as replacements.

John S.
7 September 2010 at 02:05 #55223
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
Ali filled with rocks can be quite stiff for tiny mills and lathes where the forces are very much lower than standard sized machines. So Taig’s and Sherline’s do work better than you might think with their extrusions.

One of the limits of many small mills is that the speeds are too low for carbide mills and drills where 5,000- 20,000 rpm would be good for 1-3mm cutters.

Regards,

Alan.
8 September 2010 at 11:52 #55311
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
Hi ChrisH,

Like you I was constrained by weight, size and money in that order. Which was why I bought the Warco MiniMill.

In retrospect, what I forgot, or more likely never thought about, was that these machines can be disassembled into two or more reasonably sized chunks. Which meant that the weight problem wasn’t! I could therefore have installed an X3 or equivalent.

I used an old Haltrac hoist to lift both the the lathe (125kg fully assembled, but somewhat less with as much as possible removed) and the MiniMill (68kg fully assembled, but easy to solit into two parts both of which can be lifted without aids). So what I am suggesting is that you should, if possible, go for a larger machine rather than a smaller one.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
11 September 2010 at 10:40 #55452
Clive Cassel
Participant
@clivecassel81348
Warco mini mill/drill

I bought this machine and have been pleased how it can accurately drill.

However, I also bought a milling head from Warco and wish to fit it to the machine.

I’ve followed the instructions supplied with the unit but cannot budge the tapered spindle that needs to be removed in order to fit the mill head.

I’ve used a plastic hammer to try and tap the spindle out but to no avail.

Can any one advise what I need to do

Thanks

Clive
11 September 2010 at 11:17 #55453
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
If it’s been in the taper for a long while it’s probably stuck.

Tapping is no good, sounds brutish but you need a heavy hammer, 2 lbs upwards and give it one hard smart crack.

Can you support the nose from underneath with a piece of hardwood to back it up ?

Also protect the bed with a piece of ply.

I did a service call a few years ago to a gentleman who had the same problem, did the above and it came straight out.

His reply was “I would never have hit it that hard ” but the truth is it is needed.

John S.

[Edit] Morse tapers are self holding and if not lightly oiled when fitted they can over a period of time self weld to together, doesn’t happen often but can.

I have an old long series drill here, about 3/4″ in a 2 to 4 morse socket, It came like that in a job lot.

I have now given up with it as regards using either the drill or socket again because it is stuck and I mean stuck.

With nothing to loose a few months ago I ground a tapered wedge to fit the slot, placed it on the anvil and hit it with a 14lb sledge – repeatedly.

I now have a drill, sleeve and wedge riveted together, I have even tried hitting the outside of the No4 morse sleeve to expand it, I know it’s now scrap but it’s a point of principle

Edited By John Stevenson on 11/09/2010 11:25:29
11 September 2010 at 11:37 #55454
Stovepipe
Participant
@stovepipe
Warco Mini Mill/Drill –

I’ve got one of these, and the drill chuck replaces a bench drill. I also use it on occasion as a stationary router, so as far as I’m concerned it is a multi-function machine. Don’t do that much milling at the moment on it, so I can’t really offer any opinion as to its accuracy, which I must leave to others.

Dennis
11 September 2010 at 13:12 #55457
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
John, you can proberbly put your long drill in the lathe and turn the sleeve off unless its too hard, or a slit down each side with the angle grinder with a thin wheel, take it nearly down to the 2 taper, then hit it hard on your anvil and split it, you might at least salvage the drill. Ian S C
11 September 2010 at 13:24 #55459
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Ian,

Not really bothered now about both, well the sleeve is well and truly tattered and the drill isn’t / wasn’t anything to write home about, it’s infuriating that it’s beating me !!

John S.
11 September 2010 at 14:12 #55460
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
Last time I succeeded in parting what amounts to a cold weld involving a 2MT adaptor, I only got anywhere at all after heating the outside pretty rapidly before applying the heavy hammer to it. I didn’t use a 14lb sledge, but a more controllable 5lb club hammer. What appeared to be most important at the point of impact was ensuring that the adaptor had absolutely nowhere to move; even the smallest amount of movement pretty much ensures that the energy transfer is nowhere near great enough.

The other thing that makes a huge difference (if it can be managed) is to pre-load whatever you are trying to part, with something like a hub puller, or whatever, before you hit it. This makes more difference than you might credit!
11 September 2010 at 17:03 #55464
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
One of the problems with using a hammer or other shock tool is that the shock must be taken through the bearings etc which is something I do not like. However, in MEW96 page 28 George McLatchie gives information on a screw extractor for these machines which essentially allows one to apply pressure to the (non)removable item whilst retaining the pressure within the shaft itself. There is thus no shock loading on the bearings.

It does mean some turning, left hand internal screwcutting, and a slight reduction to a locking nut on the machine, although I made a replacement nut rather than mangle the original.

It works, and works extremely well, but I suppose in this instance it may be too far gone. Still, it could be worth a try.

Good luck,

Peter G. Shaw
11 September 2010 at 17:16 #55466
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
Just another point. The Warco MiniMill DOES indeed have plastic gears internally. There are metal replacement gears available from Arc Euro Trade (usual disclaimer) but will be found under the C3 lathe spare parts list where they will be found as C3/X2 parts (the MiniMill is basically an upgraded X2).

As far as using it is concerned, there is a lot, indeed a heck of a lot, of play in the various handles, but the usual idea of going well back to take up the slop, and then come forwards seems to work. A new machine really requires a strip down, clean, grease and reassembly when delivered. I’ve seen two machines now and both required this doing to them.

Accuracy? Don’t know. I haven’t done much machining with them, and frankly, I’m not sure that my personal skills are good enough yet. Having said that, it has done all that I asked of it – except when I smashed the gears in the early days. (And a friend smashed his gears in less time than I did – he now has metal gears whilst I am still on my second set of plastic gears witha metal set waiting for the inevitable.)

I have to say that I do find milling a darn sight easier than on the lathe, but as I’ve never used a miller before, that’s not really a recommendation.

I haven’t yet used it as a drill because I do have bench drill, not particularly accurate, but nevertheless a drilling machine, and until I need to do some accurate drilling, it will suffice.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
11 September 2010 at 17:33 #55472
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi John, have you tried heating your drill with the stuck on sleeve, as it may be just that. Stuck on with Loctite, and if is 638 you won’t move it without heating or cutting it of.

Regards Nick.
11 September 2010 at 19:29 #55479
John Hinkley
Participant
@johnhinkley26699
Hard luck, Chris. Just when you thought you had some useful information, you now know how to (not) remove a stubborn drill from a Morse taper! Just to add to your confusion, I bought an XJ12-300 mill from Amadeal a short while ago. It looks exactly the same as the Warco version, but is cheaper. I did, however go to the distributor and pick it up, as I happened to be in the UK with my car at the time, but it might be worth checking them out – check delivery charges etc. Usual disclaimer re connections with the company – just a satisfied customer; only too happy to recommend them.

Happy milling,

John

Edited By John Hinkley on 11/09/2010 19:30:40
11 September 2010 at 23:21 #55487
Stovepipe
Participant
@stovepipe
At the risk of posing a silly question, and inferior knowledge to many others on here, I take it you managed to remove the 3/8″ drawbar that secures the dirill and milling cutters. I had the original drill chuck stick in the taper. I ground down an M10 bolt so the head was rounded to fit in the hole for the drawbar, and gave a few whacks with a large wooden mallet, which did shift it.

Dennis
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