Metal compatability problems?

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Metal compatability problems?

This topic has 17 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 9 July 2010 at 17:40 by Cornish Jack.

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4 July 2010 at 17:45 #53144
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Hi

I have to repair a roller blind shutter which has fractured the mounting lugs. The headbox ends and the mounting lugs APPEAR to be made of Mazak or similar and I cannot see any way of repairing the fractures. However I COULD pop rivet metal brackets (Dexion offcuts) onto the ends and screw mount these to the wall.

Question 1 – does Mazak react to close contact with steel?

Question 2 – Would the above combination be more likely to corrosion in a VERY salt laden atmosphere? This last is prompted by the state of the headbox ends after a year or so in situ – powdery surface deterioration.

Any suggestions/comments welcome.

TIA

Rgds

Bill
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4 July 2010 at 17:45 #5105
Cornish Jack
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@cornishjack
4 July 2010 at 20:20 #53150
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Hi Jack,

The steel will likely cause galvanic corrosion in contact with Mazak unless you use silicone grease or a piece of PTFE between them. It may corrode at the rivets though.

Aluminum sheet and rivets would corrode less than steel but still will corrode eventually.

A better if not easier idea would be to make new brackets out of Delrin or other acetal. Just as strong or stronger than Mazak and will not corrode at all, ever.

Or, use your existing Mazak parts as patterns to sand cast marine bronze fittings (probably way over the top, but definitely high quality!)

Just my 2 cents.

JD
5 July 2010 at 15:02 #53165
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you, Jeff – the Delrin method sounds ideal. The only problem I can see is identifying the right stuff! I have two or three pieces of “man-made” material but I’m not sufficiently ‘au fait’ to tell one from t’other Presumably there will be considerable differences in strengths to make one sort better than another. Probably a web search for suppliers of the real Delrin would be the best bet. Thanks again

Bill
5 July 2010 at 21:22 #53176
Keith Wardill 1
Participant
@keithwardill1
Jack,

Jeff Daymans remark about casting replacement parts is a good idea – I had a similar problem some years ago, but I made my castings from aluminium using the ‘lost foam’ process – I was really surprised by how easy it was (usual remarks about safety when handlng molten metals) – I was so happy with the results, I now frequently cast parts I need, rather than fabricating – I have made things like mounting feet for electric motors, spindle supports for polishing wheels and so on. Corrosion will of course be worse with ali than with bronze, but it isn’t going to corrode that fast (unless you live in the sea).

There is lots of info available on the Internet, and you don’t need any special equipment for small amounts of casting. – if you are making your own, you also have the possibility to redsign and strengthen to cope with heavier loads.
6 July 2010 at 16:38 #53188
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you Keith.

Casting parts is undoubtedly a good idea, unless, like me, your manual skills are a liability rather than an asset!! Re. living in the sea – well the next best (worst) thing – we live directly (10′ approx) above the beach exposed to the standard NE’lies off the North Sea. Salt there is aplenty.

It would seem that Delrin is produced in various forms but NOT in rectangular blocks such as would most easily suit my needs. I have ordered some round offcuts and will machine them to a right angle bracket form. Having no idea of stress levels or how to calculate same, I hope they will be effective rather than elegant!!

Again, thanks for the input.

Rgds

Bill
6 July 2010 at 23:21 #53196
Sam Stones
Participant
@samstones42903
Hello Jack,

For what it’s worth, if you are keen to determine the `nature’ of a plastics (polymer) material, I know from experience that raw material manufacturers normally have standard testing laboratory facilities, and routinely test their product for quality. Identification tests can also be carried out in their more extensive laboratories to determine more closely, the type, grade and therefore application suitability.

However, finding a raw material company who will carry out basic tests and at what cost could be the stumbling block.

Another possibility is to locate a technical college who teach polymer science, and who are equipped with polymer identification facilities.

Generally speaking, homopolymers will be hard and brittle while copolymers are softer but tougher.

Good luck with your repairs.

Sam
7 July 2010 at 11:20 #53199
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Sam, thank you for that but see the following.

As Confucius say, “When all else fails, read the %£**&! instructions!!” Having at last turned up the brochure, it states that the end plates of the headbox are, in fact, diecast aluminium rather than Mazak. So, presumably, although the same caveat re. dexion applies, ali fixing brackets would be OK? Does anyone know if differing types of aluminium would be problematical in contact or are there any precautions I should take in attaching the new brackets?

Any comments appreciated

Rgds

Bill
7 July 2010 at 18:08 #53203
V8Eng
Participant
@v8eng
If you have the brochure does that mean the manufacturers are still about? If so it might be cheaper and faster to get the parts from them.

I was working out how to repair our 40+ year old garage doors, an internet search found the makers, and they supplied parts very reasonably.

At least that way I could get on with my hobbies.

Edited By V8Eng on 07/07/2010 18:09:19
7 July 2010 at 22:39 #53210
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you, V8Eng

That would be a possibility if the brochure carried any contact info… it doesn’t and the ‘net doesn’t offer any help either. The other problem is that window shutters are bespoke so the spares (if available) are likely to be as expensive as the original I would (obviously) prefer to re-attach the old shutter if it’s possible and if it is likely to remain attached for a year or three. I would still like some reassurance from someone who understands metals that the aluminium brackets are feasible.

Rgds

Bill
8 July 2010 at 09:07 #53215
Gordon W
Participant
@gordonw
There are lots of different types of aluminium, some good in seawater, some hopeless, I don’t know of-hand which is best, but the chances of getting the correct one is remote, except maybe from the makers. Why not give them several coats of good paint?
8 July 2010 at 10:54 #53217
Martin W
Participant
@martinw
Hi

As we neither know the size of the brackets nor the weight they are expected to support I don’t see how any sensible advice can be offered as to suitable materials to replace the existing failed brackets . I assume that the failure of the existing brackets is due to stress fracture at a load point rather than corrosion.

One alternative solution to the problem would be to get the existing brackets, assuming the brochure is correct and they are aluminium, welded and if space allows an extra piece/fillet of aluminium added where the failure occurred. I would expect that this could be done locally and should not prove to be too expensive.

Another point to be aware of is that mixing other metals with aluminium based materials can be disastrous. Metals like stainless steel when in contact with aluminium in a marine environment will cause the aluminium to corrode rapidly yet both on their own will survive in this type of environment.

Hope this is of some help.

Martin (Ex Kernow)
8 July 2010 at 12:27 #53220
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you Gordon and Martin.

Some progress made The manufacturers on the brochure are not, apparently, the makers of these particular shutters although the design is similar. Spare parts may be unavailable.

Re. the size/weight issue, the headbox was supported on two square section ‘spigots’ (for want of a better word) approximately 1″ sides and 2 – 3 ” long, which were part of the endplate castings. These were inserted into the tops of the two side guide rails for the shutters, these guide rails being attached to the wall with 4 off 8 gauge screws each. These have broken off. The whole lot, including roller shutter, motor, drive tube, headbox etc. was a fairly easy lift/carry – so maybe 30-40 lbs?

The intention, at the moment, would be to make up aluminium angle brackets, say 1/4″ thick and 2″ ‘legs’, 1″ wide pop rivetted to the remains of the existing end plates and then attach these to the wall. The guide rails would no longer support the headbox. The end plates are about 6″ square but the rivets would have to be positioned to avoid the roller blind when it’s back in the headbox. Perhaps two brackets on each plate (top and bottom) for insurance?

If that works, several coats of quality paint, as Gordon suggests, might increase the life-span? Apologies for the ramble but I’m trying to test the possibilities on a knowlegeable audience, working from a personal knowledge base close to zero

Rgds

Bill
8 July 2010 at 12:30 #53221
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Hi Cornish Jack, I would suggest looking for some off cuts of stainless steel angle of a suitable size, and fabricating the brackets out of that. To join it either use stainless bolts, or get it welded. If you have a choice, go for 316 stainless. Ian S C
8 July 2010 at 12:48 #53223
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you Ian.

There would appear to be a difference of opinion ‘tween yourself and Martin (see his last para above.) DOES the combination provoke corrosion or is it dependent on the method of joining?

Rgds

“Confused of Norfolk”

Bill
9 July 2010 at 00:24 #53231
Martin W
Participant
@martinw
Bill

The reason I raised the problem re stainless and aluminium was that prior to my retirement I was working with a group that manufactured and serviced specialist ocean buoys. The superstructure was, for obvious reasons, constructed from stainless steel. However it was necessary to attach items that were made from aluminium/aluminium alloy to this superstructure and if these units were allowed to contact the steel they corroded very quickly. Therefore wherever there were potential mating surfaces between these materials they were isolated from each other either by application of specialist coatings/paints.

The problem arises as dis-similar metals can form a battery and when salt water is applied the battery is effectively activated and starts dissolving one electrode, often referred to as electrochemical corrosion. This process is used to advantage in shipping and other areas by reducing the corrosion of the steel hull of the ship by bolting a ‘sacrificial anode’ to the hull below the water line. These sacrificial anodes are frequently made from zinc or aluminium and slowly corrode away thereby preserving the steel hull.

While your environment is not this severe there will be a degree of this type of corrosion in the environment you describe, hence the reason I highlighted the potential problem. If you do decide to use stainless or any other steel in conjunction with aluminium then I suggest you paint each component thoroughly and assemble when dry in an attempt to minimize any potential problem. The other consideration is how long do you want the repair to last? If only a few years then bolt it all together and coat liberally with grease or an oil based corrosion inhibitor then forget it till next time.

Sorry for the ramble but have witnessed the extreme effects of this type of corrosion.

All that said I would prefer to use stainless steel as a support primarily as it is so much stronger and more durable that aluminium . Its just the mix that causes the problems!!

All the best.

Martin

Edited By Martin W on 09/07/2010 00:31:13

Edited By Martin W on 09/07/2010 00:36:34
9 July 2010 at 11:08 #53239
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Martin, I was thinking of making the bracket of stainless, but I was not taking into account the rest of the unit which I imagine is aluminium, although this proberbly has steel pivot pins or something. If the two are insulated should be OK, if not perhaps jack can hook up a light to his new battery. Ian S C
9 July 2010 at 17:40 #53245
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Martin and Ian – Thank you for the explanation AND the possibilities of a potential new power source

I did a bit more searching and finally found a contact number for a manufacturer of these blinds. Apparently not exactly the same as mine but similar. Long story shortened – maybe a local rep will combine a beach afternoon with a looksee at the damage and advise – fingers tightly crossed. Even if that is successful, the foregoing hints and tips have been very helpful and illuminating.

Thank you all

Rgds

Bill
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