Brass Shell Case

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Brass Shell Case

This topic has 47 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 20 January 2010 at 07:33 by Eastleighite.

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12 January 2010 at 11:48 #47298
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
I have an open fire and, over the years, have collected a number of blacksmith individually made pokers, tongs etc. Recently I’ve bought a 4.5″ Mk. 8 naval gun brass shell case with the intention of using it as a holder for the aforementioned. Currently it stands at about 20.5″ high with a flared (swaged?) top edge; I need to reduce the height to abpout 16″ , thereby, also disposing of the unattractive flaring, otherwise some of my fire tools will disappear inside it! Despite being labelled a 4.5″ shell the diameter of the brass case is approximately 6.5″.

I thought I might make a wooden plug and somehow set the whole thing up in the Myford to remove the unwanted material or maybe use a jig-saw to remove it.

(For the military minded, it is an ex-Falklands War case and re-assuringly it is stamped GEE – Guaranteed Empty of Explosive!!)

How would you reduce it to the required height?
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12 January 2010 at 11:48 #4916
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
USS Iowa-Guns of Navarone!!!
12 January 2010 at 12:45 #47300
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Thats going to be a bit of a sod, because its thin so, unlike parting off bar with tailstock support it may well collapse on you. I think you might be unwise going that route.

I would put it the into a fixed steady and part off outboard of the steady. The length won’t go into a Myford as is, so you could just butcher the excess excess off? But that way you know its not going to do a swerve under cutting loads which are some way away from centre and therefore exert some leverage.

Fixed steadies.

Well it don’t take the brains of an archbishop to work out that the Myford one won’t take it!

MES make a big dia kit. If thats too much, for a one off, a bored hole in a bit of 3/4 ply clamped vertically will do it. Make the bed fixing, attach the ply plate. Mark centre form the headstock. Then mark hole reasonably accurately. If you have a boring head you could finish with that, but thou accuracy is not essential particularly as the case is tapered.

If you need an adjuster, a slit and a carpenters screw will do the biz.

IRRC that’s the method Ivan Law recommends for doing the bearing seats in the quill of the Dore Westbury so its capable of good accuracy if need be. I didn’t use it personally because I had built the big steady sometime earlier.

If memory serves me right that case was also used in the 105MM Tank Gun. Different projectiles of course. And hence on both sides of various wars bacause we sold a lot of them!

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 12/01/2010 12:49:44

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 12/01/2010 12:51:48
12 January 2010 at 14:36 #47301
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
Thank you for all of that Meyrick. You might be interested in the fact that there were two for sale on Ebay; one was completely unmutilated and sold for an extraordinary sum to, I suspect, some arms and militaria enthusiast. I shan’t have any hesitation in mutilating this one further. I have to say it’s a beaut and as it stands at the moment makes a wonderfully melodious door bell.

The vendor gave me to understand that the Army used a version as well.

Thanks again – I’ll wait and see whether there are any more ideas.
12 January 2010 at 14:49 #47302
Nigel McBurney 1
Participant
@nigelmcburney1
Hi Do not attempt to machine it,when I worked as an instrument maker ,telescope tube was always sawn using fine tooth slitting saws in a saw table mounted on an instrument lathe. Then mounted on an expanding mandrel ,the ends faced and then threaded by chasing for the optic mounts,I personally would finish it with a file,use a new one on brass.if a steady is attemted then fill the inside of the tube with wood or plaster of paris or it will collapse and wreck the steady.
12 January 2010 at 15:28 #47304
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Ain’t THAT thin Nigel, but I agree, I’d bevel the end of the parting tool. It has been turned in manufacture of course, both base, and neck for length. Even in rifle sizes, cases are perfectly machinable. There was guite a good trade in 105 cartridge cases, and 75mm brass, and they were just machined off on the lathe in the LADs machie waggon. Until Chieftain with its 120mm gun came along, and that was the end of cases. Conqueror had a 120mm brass case. Now those are gold dust.

Niloch – I fired mine. Not that I was ever Centurion crew, but deals could be struck.
12 January 2010 at 16:40 #47307
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
My own 6″ length of a WW1 Naval shell which came up as part of the “Trawl” of a Bridlington fishing boat was converted into an ash tray, about 1 1/2″ overall height, by turning the lathe by hand. It still tried to tear the brass.

My own inclination would be to mark a height line round it and use hand methods to cut it rather than power. How much did it cost and how will you get another??

Regards Ian
12 January 2010 at 20:18 #47312
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
I’m in no hurry to do this job but I think both Meyrick and Circlip have shown me the way forward. Either I shall make two of the 18mm plywood collars that Meyrick recommends together with the appropriate adjuster and space them apart on the shell case sufficient for a hacksaw blade (hand methods) to fit in between. I shall then finish the rim off with files and some abrasive cloth/paper.

Or it is possible that instead of making the plywood collars that two of these might do the trick of stopping the blade deviating from the required path.

I have also used one of these saws before now to saw a stainless steel curtain pole to length.

Ooops! Both Meyrick and Circlip have fallen off their stools!!!!! I wonder why?

Another thought was a metal cutting bandsaw compensating for the taper so that the rim is at right angles to the case. However, I don’t have such a machine. (I have one that cuts glass but that’s a different forum).

By the way, although it is difficult to get a good reading because of the deformed rim, Mr Mitutoyo tells me that the brass is 0.0730 thick at that point.

Any further suggestions gratefully received.
12 January 2010 at 20:57 #47313
Stewart Hart
Participant
@stewarthart90345
I’ve cut back some 40mm bofers cases, as suggested the best way is to use a saw a 4.5″ will be quite thick so an ordinary hack saw will do fitted with a fine tooth blade:- mark around the case first to give you a guide, for what you want it for it will turn out a great job.

Have fun

Stew
12 January 2010 at 21:09 #47314
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Well having seen all the suggestions, I think a modified version of 3 contributors would be best – and it involves the lathe.

You make the collar and set the base up in the 4 jaw. You set it rotating slowly but cut with a hand held hacksaw – held stationary. That way you’ll get low cutting forces, but a proper straight edge, and you can control the cutting pressure closely.

Not so so keen on the mitre saw. Thats 1/16+ brass you are going to be cutting, and while it’lll be fine start and finish, unless you have a very fine toothed saw, it will be sh**t on the narrow edges in the middle. Try cutting a piece of drainpipe with a hacksaw for illustration. Twil likely bounce all over the place. Which problem the rotating version overcomes.

Team effort.
13 January 2010 at 00:44 #47317
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
Hi Guys,

Thought I might join this little machining exercise. If the shell case will fit between chuck and tailstock, why not plug the open end and hold in the chuck, then put the live centre in the primer hole. If the chuck is too small then cut a plywood disc to fit outside the shell and grip the case from the inside. You now have a fairly rigid set up, so parting off with a sharp tool and slow speed should work. Don’t part off completely, if the wall is 73 thou thick then only cut about 70 thou or until the cut reaches the inside. Don’t cut more than half of the circumference, very slow infeed is needed. Remove from the lathe and with a pair of snips remove the unwanted brass. A few moments with a file will neaten up the rough bits.

There is of course a special tool for the job, rather like a plumbers pipe cutter but on a slightly larger scale, Record make one that does 65-340mm OD but cost £544+VAT in 1999, it says for cast iron but should cut brass if you put a plug in first. Car exhaust fitters also have a similar tool for cutting pipes, but it might not be big enough.

I shudder at the thought of using a mitre saw, unless a very fine toothed blade was available. A bandsaw would be preferable with precautions, like a big lump of wood filling the hole, while the outside rested in a sacrificial wooden Vee block.

Funny how none off the Model engineering books talk about how to do such things, i call that lack of foresight.

chriStephens
13 January 2010 at 13:11 #47324
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
If you were doing this in a mass production enviroment I would advise water jet cutting, but as a one off, why risk “Powered” methods??

The Jubbly clip idea is great, tapered sides a BIT of a problem together with the big bit where the screws are.

Run round the top of the casing with a felt tipped box marker, stand the thing vertically and scribe a line round the top and use a fine toothed “Phillips Junior Hacksaw” to trim the rim.

Probably quicker to do than make a jig and fixture, don all the safety clothing and make a will out “Just in case”

If it were a piece of an Atlas 5 it WOULD be rocket science but not for a used brass can.

Regards Ian.

Mentioned the ash tray but forgot to mention the Lighter made from a 20mm cannon shell from a Lightning (E.E. not Lockheed) and the 303 casings from my RAF Marksman winning rounds.

Edited By Circlip on 13/01/2010 13:15:01
13 January 2010 at 13:55 #47325
Keith Long
Participant
@keithlong89920
Why not use an abrasive disc in a mini drill (dremel type). You could clamp the drill in a vertical stand at the height you want and rotate the shell case by hand against the edge of the disc. No danger of damaging the case – not enough power – just enough to cut.

Keith
13 January 2010 at 14:01 #47326
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
Thank you one and all again. I wasn’t at all serious about using the mitre saw Chris, although, it did cut through the stainless steel curtain pole without any histrionics and, amazingly, left a good finish.

Thank you Circlip for the compliment about my Jubilee Clip idea. Praise indeed. Atlas 5/rocket science – very droll!!

I wonder if many members here are familiar with the saw that I have in mind, have a look at the video here , it is fairly amazing. Just to tempt you further if I said to you, “Use a mitre saw to cut a scaffolding pole”, some of you would probably think I was barking mad. Do view it.

As I said earlier I do, at the moment, favour hand methods. It’s too cold to work in my garage at the moment but I shall re-visit this post with further information when the job is done.

Edited By Niloch on 13/01/2010 14:04:37
13 January 2010 at 14:17 #47327
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
Hi Guys,

Sorry but i don’t see what good a Jubilee type clip will do. Surely it will do bu**er all to the stiffness of the case. I suppose it could be used as a guide either for a marker pen or perhaps a saw.

I find when cutting large tubes some stiffness has to be added in order to hold and cut them in the lathe. I use the lathe to give a smooth and true end to the job, granted a poker stand has very loose tolerance requirements, but appearance is all important.

Not familiar with “Philips” junior hacksaws, but if they are anything like the “Stanley” ones, are you mad? We are talking about a 6.5 inch diameter shell here, and how long is a junior hacksaw blade?

Not wishing to upset anyone, you understand, just trying to offer helpful pointers.

chriStephens
13 January 2010 at 16:22 #47329
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
You might get into a paddy using a saw like that Niloch. I’m just trying to keep you calm while doing the job.

Junior hacksaw blade is about 5″ long Chris. Wall thickness of shell about 80 thou, Never rotated a tube while cutting it ??? You get a MUCH straighter cut doing it that way, you’re following a line rather than guessing where it is on the other side.

Regards Ian.
13 January 2010 at 16:36 #47331
John Haine
Participant
@johnhaine32865
I think I recall reading somewhere that cartridge brass (which this may well be!) doesn’t machine at all well – in clockmaking I think they recommend some different alloy for plates that you can easily drill. IIRC, may be best to go for a manual sawing operation, it sounds like trying this in the lathe could result in a messy dig in.
13 January 2010 at 17:59 #47337
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
Well here I am again folks. Chris: “I suppose it (Jubilee Clips) could be used as a guide either for a marker pen or a saw”. I know English is my second language but didn’t I say that was the very idea of using them?

Anyhow, it’s not important; the very latest idea is to use Circlips thumbs and my 600mm dia. mitre saw. He has refused the body armour and chain mail gloves proffered, the helpfulness of this fraternity of model engineers never ceases to amaze me.

A gentle reprimand if I may. We must all know that this forum has a good number of non-British members. Abbreviations, without an explanation, will not be very helpful to them in their understanding of the posts. What on earth is IRRC?

John, CZ120 (a grade of brass) is generally used for clock plates; easy to drill – you must be kidding!

Edited By Niloch on 13/01/2010 18:12:54
13 January 2010 at 18:04 #47338
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
`Hi Circlip me old mate,

I still think you will run out of frame very quickly, but if you say it is a practical proposition, I bow to your greater knowledge of such things, but I would still use a lathe for the superior finish it would give, but then i am used to cutting oddities.

chriStephens
13 January 2010 at 18:34 #47339
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
Posted by Niloch on 13/01/2010 17:59:21:

A gentle reprimand if I may. We must all know that this forum has a good number of non-British members. Abbreviations, without an explanation, will not be very helpful to them in their understanding of the posts. What on earth is IIRC?

If I Recall Correctly – bog-standard email-speak it started as, but I agree that not even all English speakers will necessarily get it…

Another one that might well be used quite often (and it could easily be applied to this thread, I think) is YMMV – Your Mileage May Vary!

Edited By Steve Garnett on 13/01/2010 18:36:06
13 January 2010 at 18:35 #47340
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
Hi Niloch,

If you are unfamiliar with modern Acronyms, may I commend http://www.acronymfinder.com/   to you ,

Re the jubilee clip, sorry, an over sight on my part. blame the cold weather, if that does not suffice, blame old age. If that does not work either, I offer stupidity as a final excuse.

As I have said before and many will agree, English is my second language too, my first language is a pure form of Gibberish.

That’s all for now Folks, back to the asylum.

christephens
13 January 2010 at 18:51 #47341
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Bollocks (old english) to all this. Set the thing up in a fixed steady and part off.

Of course it will part. How is it going to go tits up (anglo saxon), with a fixed steady about 1/4 ” form the cut.

Sorry about Chris idea. You have to get the primer out. It screws in, but in the interests of weather proofing, (and long term storage – remember the Delrin discussion) its all lacquered in. So that’s not so easy, even if you do have/make the right peg spanner

I think also we need to get away from the idea that its a terribly delicate thing. Unlike say 45Boxer cases (Zulu) which were paper thin. This thing provides a spring to obturate the breech on firing, the Navy feed then through an an autoloader, and it goes though the chain drives and feeds at the rate of about 20 per minute with a 20-30lb proj clamped in the nose. And of course they are strong enough ot take the levlerage of that proj while being bounced about in ammo stowage bins. You can drop them, filled, off the top of a tank, and no harm will come to them. So they are pretty robust.

youll find hte brass pretty hard because it has been work hardened form the original drawing process – the only bit that is soft is the flame annealed bit around the end. That didn’t come from firing – they don’t really get hot from firing. Just warm

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 13/01/2010 18:53:41
14 January 2010 at 12:53 #47370
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
Hi Meyrick,

Regarding the Primer pin wrench, if a job is worth doing it is worth doing well!

Of course a fixed steady would work most admirably, but not everybody has one big enough, mind you twenty odd inches in length might be pushing quite a few model engineers’ lathes somewhat, too.

While I am sure you are correct as to the sturdy construction of said shell cases, I should not like to risk dropping one, blunt end first, on a hard stony surface.

Anybody got a spare shell case they don’t want any more that I might have to research cutting techniques on?

chriStephens
14 January 2010 at 15:15 #47375
Crocadillopig
Participant
@crocadillopig
Hi Chris

Funny you should say that, I’ve got one in my workshop (and its staying there). I use it as a stowage for longish lengths of bar stock. As a stoker in the Navy I spent many an off watch period making ashtrays from 4.5″ shell cases after high seas firings and before Jennys Side Party got hold of them. The first thing I always did, on the advice of the gunners was to remove the primer as you don’t know what, if any, residue may still be attached. I always found the best way was with a hammer and punch as you may remove a broken stud. As for cutting to size I had access to a Harrison but I still did the initial cutting to length with a hacksaw, and bearing in mind the length you intend, after cutting get a decent file out and trim it to the line It will take less time than it has for me to one finger type this!

Regards Russ
14 January 2010 at 18:10 #47378
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
So Russ, another ACTUAL ashtray maker, when all the purists and pontificators have had their say, at least TWO successful fag end receiver constructors have been/done/got the tee shirt/ made the Vid AND re-recorded over the top of it.

Even “short strokin’ ” Chris, at 61/2″ dia. a 5″ blade will allow a 4″ length of cut. Pencil,compass, rule, Try it.

Regards Ian.
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