Which Cutter Grinder?

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Which Cutter Grinder?

This topic has 26 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 7 January 2011 at 21:25 by Clive Foster.

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19 November 2009 at 10:37 #45322
Ray Spreadbury
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@rayspreadbury58704
i have recently bought an old Myford Super 7 lathe and as a beginner I am attending a weekly engineering workshop course at the local college where we have access to lathes, mills etc. as well as a very experienced engineer to guide us through our projects.

It has rapidly become apparent that to get the best from the equipment the cutting tools have to be in excellent condition and sharp – something they are often not after use by the full time students!

So, what advice do you have re a cutter grinder for my home workshop to either purchase or build? So far I have found the Stent, Kennet & Quorn to buy castings/parts & build, the Clarkson to buy secondhand (Ebay) or I believe there is a simple jig to make in Harold Hall’s book “Tool & Cutter Sharpening”.

Any comments appreciated.

Chers

Ray
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19 November 2009 at 10:37 #4849
Ray Spreadbury
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@rayspreadbury58704
19 November 2009 at 11:09 #45323
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

For lathe tools, one of Harold’s jigs would do fine.

For end mills and slot drills, I would buy a few from Ebay and use them till they are worn and then buy a few more.

You can buy an awful lot of tools for the cost of a set of cutter grinder castings and you can get someone at your local club to sharpen them for you or sell them on Ebay and buy some more.

I used to collect all the old cutters from work that they could not be bothered to sharpen and they all sold well on Ebay.

regards David
19 November 2009 at 11:16 #45325
Michael Cox 1
Participant
@michaelcox1
Amadeal (http://www.amadeal.co.uk) are offering a simple jig, similar to that designed by Harold Hall, for £120. Look in the section called “other machinery”.

Mike
19 November 2009 at 12:19 #45330
Ray Spreadbury
Participant
@rayspreadbury58704
Posted by David Clark 1 on 19/11/2009 11:09:09:

Hi There

For lathe tools, one of Harold’s jigs would do fine.

For end mills and slot drills, I would buy a few from Ebay and use them till they are worn and then buy a few more.

You can buy an awful lot of tools for the cost of a set of cutter grinder castings and you can get someone at your local club to sharpen them for you or sell them on Ebay and buy some more.

I used to collect all the old cutters from work that they could not be bothered to sharpen and they all sold well on Ebay.

regards David

Thanks for the suggestions David but maybe I should have said that part of the exercise could be the fun of building something too, hence my interest in the cutter grinder kits. I also forgot to mention the Wordon (?).

regards

Ray
19 November 2009 at 15:36 #45335
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
I wouldn’t have described Harold Hall’s jigs as jigs. Indeed Hall himself describes them as Grinding Rests for use with a D/E grinder. They do include adaptors to enable the sharpening of milling cutters.

It all depends what you want to do. If you want a kit of parts, then you will have to buy, eg the Worden, but if you wish to make from stock materials, then Hall is the way to go.(And possibly cheaper as well.) Workshop Practice Books 35 (Milling A Complete Course), 38 (Tool and Cutter Sharpening) and 39 (Model Engineer’s Workshop Projects) refer.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
19 November 2009 at 16:02 #45336
Jim Whetren
Participant
@jimwhetren72358
Hello Ray,

If you want a home build which is not too demanding and is complete, then I would recommend the Worden,

Given that it is ready to go when finished, the price is quite reasonable.

I am not knocking other kits, but with the work invollved and the purchase of a motor and grinding wheels, it becomes a long term project which is fairly expensive.

Horses for courses.

Regards,

Jim
19 November 2009 at 17:53 #45339
mgj
Participant
@mgj
More than anything else, it depends what you want to grind?

And what you want to make it on?

If you want to grind basic lathe tools, sharpen drills and do endmills, then the standard kits are fine – indeed perfect. Harold Hall, Worden Kennet.

If you want to start grinding tapers for reamers for injectors, or taps, taps for specials, cams for IC engines etc then you have to go for a Quorn or a Stent.

The Quorn you can build on a Myford if you have a vertical slide – the Stent I don’t know.

I presume you have a dividing head that will do 360 divisions – or can get access to one.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 19/11/2009 17:54:23
19 November 2009 at 21:18 #45352
Ray Spreadbury
Participant
@rayspreadbury58704
Posted by meyrick griffith-jones on 19/11/2009 17:53:37:

More than anything else, it depends what you want to grind?

And what you want to make it on?

If you want to grind basic lathe tools, sharpen drills and do endmills, then the standard kits are fine – indeed perfect. Harold Hall, Worden Kennet.

If you want to start grinding tapers for reamers for injectors, or taps, taps for specials, cams for IC engines etc then you have to go for a Quorn or a Stent.

The Quorn you can build on a Myford if you have a vertical slide – the Stent I don’t know.

I presume you have a dividing head that will do 360 divisions – or can get access to one.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 19/11/2009 17:54:23

OK, good question Meyrick.

Yes, at this stage I want to be able to successfully grind lathe tools, drills & milling cutters. Regarding reamers , taps & grinding cams I don’t think so but maybe in the future ….?

So, that sounds as though its either Harold Halls’s jigs or the Worden or Kennet.

regards

Ray
19 November 2009 at 21:34 #45354
mgj
Participant
@mgj
That’s fine of course, but be aware that these “lower powered” machines, while absolutely excellent for what they were designed, are not really convertible for the additional tasks later.

Second point is that the Quorn and I think the Stent can also be used for surface grinding. The Stent in its own right (needs confirmation). The Quorn head is dismountable and there are pix of it in use on a lathe and a milling machine, surface grinding and internal rotary grinding.

Third point, and I am a biased fan of the Quorn, its not actually that much more work than the others. But the extra capability is huge.

I don’t know. I like toolmaking, that was around, at the time (mid 80s or so) and I made it and am very glad I didwhen it came to making my traction engine because a lot of funny holes and shapes could be done easily with accurately ground form tools. I can sharpen big 2″ diameter slabbing endmills with ease, and I can sharpen “big” drills with 2MT shanks easily too. You pays your money and takes your choice

Was it worth the extra effort – in hindsight yes, because of the flexibility and cost savings, but that doesn’t mean to say that everyone would come up with the same answer..
19 November 2009 at 21:50 #45356
Ray Spreadbury
Participant
@rayspreadbury58704
Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 19/11/2009 15:36:59:

I wouldn’t have described Harold Hall’s jigs as jigs. Indeed Hall himself describes them as Grinding Rests for use with a D/E grinder. They do include adaptors to enable the sharpening of milling cutters.

It all depends what you want to do. If you want a kit of parts, then you will have to buy, eg the Worden, but if you wish to make from stock materials, then Hall is the way to go.(And possibly cheaper as well.) Workshop Practice Books 35 (Milling A Complete Course), 38 (Tool and Cutter Sharpening) and 39 (Model Engineer’s Workshop Projects) refer.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

Hi Peter

I already have a copy of #35 and have had a quick look at the grinding rest and the associated accessories HH describes. I dont yet have #’s38 & 39 (on order now) but does he describe other cutting/grinding projects or are they the same as those in 35?

regards

Ray
21 November 2009 at 19:40 #45439
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
Hi Ray,

First of all, an apology. Contrary to what I said, WSP 39 does NOT have anything in with regard to grinding rests. I have absolutely no idea why I mentioned it. Please, please accept my apologies.

Secondly, the two rests described in WSP 35 & WSP 38 do indeed appear to be different. 38 is describes by HH as “A Simple Grinding Rest”, but it does have accessories for endmills, square & round workpiece holders, slitting saw sharpening, etc. There are also other tool sharpening devices. FWIW, the No. 38 rest seems to use a ball around which the rest is swiveled to obtain the various angles, whereas No. 35 seems to use a combination of slides/dovetails and swinging arms.

Hope this helps, and once again, sorry for the duff info.

Regards,

Peter.

ps As it happens, I have bought every one of the WSP books, and have found the vast majority of interest. Certainly I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending the HH books, along with those by Tubal Cain.
3 January 2011 at 14:11 #61686
Tony Jeffree
Participant
@tonyjeffree56510
Posted by Jim Whetren on 19/11/2009 16:02:42:

Hello Ray,

If you want a home build which is not too demanding and is complete, then I would recommend the Worden,

Given that it is ready to go when finished, the price is quite reasonable.

Having just completed building a Worden (and sent off an article on it to David Clark for MEW), I would also recommend it. The kit comes with several of the main components prefabricated from sheet steel, so the total amount of machining required is relatively modest. As said by others already, it isn’t as capable as the Quorn or Stent, but on the other hand, it is significantly easier to build and is capable of most of the grinding opeations that the average ME will need.
3 January 2011 at 14:55 #61689
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi Ray, you can always build one of the simpler ones to get your lathe tools sharp and gain a bit more practice in the process and then build the Quorn or Stent and then finally sell the first one you make on the ole fleebay.

Regards Nick.
3 January 2011 at 15:06 #61690
Tony Jeffree
Participant
@tonyjeffree56510
Posted by Nicholas Farr on 03/01/2011 14:55:33:

Hi Ray, you can always build one of the simpler ones to get your lathe tools sharp and gain a bit more practice in the process and then build the Quorn or Stent and then finally sell the first one you make on the ole fleebay.

Regards Nick.

That is certainly a plausible route; however, for just the same reason that you keep your old offhand bench grinder when you have built a Worden or Kennet, you will probably want to keep the Worden/Kennet when you have built the Quorn or Stent. There are some grinding operations that are plain quicker and easier to do on the simpler machines.

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 03/01/2011 15:07:36
3 January 2011 at 15:28 #61695
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi Tony, I do agree, however it was a sugestion on ones finance more than anything.

Regards Nick.
3 January 2011 at 17:20 #61701
Geoff Sheppard
Participant
@geoffsheppard46476
Ray

If you can get access to a copy of MEW No. 71 you will find a five page article on building the Worden from the Hemingway kit. This will give you some idea of the task you would be taking on.

Regards

Geoff
3 January 2011 at 17:26 #61703
Gone Away
Participant
@goneaway
I imagine the commercial interests will cringe a bit but don’t overlook the fact that a Worden-type grinder can be built from scratch.

The major difficulty is the grinding head itself but I’m using one of the inexpensive (oriental) 3″ bench grinders for that and it seems to be working out. The rest of it is pretty basic metalwork. Mine is virtually complete less any toolholders.
3 January 2011 at 17:44 #61706
Tony Jeffree
Participant
@tonyjeffree56510
Posted by Sid Herbage on 03/01/2011 17:26:17:

I imagine the commercial interests will cringe a bit but don’t overlook the fact that a Worden-type grinder can be built from scratch.

The major difficulty is the grinding head itself but I’m using one of the inexpensive (oriental) 3″ bench grinders for that and it seems to be working out. The rest of it is pretty basic metalwork. Mine is virtually complete less any toolholders.

Sid –

You are of course correct – any of these grinders can be built from stock materials if so desired, even the ones that come as casting kits. There’s also absolutely nothing to stop you going the David Gingery route & starting by building your own foundry and patterns to make your own castings – ally castings would work fine for these machines and melting/casting ally isn’t terribly difficult. It is all a matter of how easy you want the process to be and how much swarf you want to make.

Another potentially interesting route is to start with a commercial X/Y table, sit it on a commercial tilting table, and as you say, stick the whole lot in front of a bench grinder from Be and Queue.

Actually, in the case of the Worden, the grinding head isn’t much of a problem, as the grinding wheel hub mounts directly on the motor spindle (unlike most of the others where you build a separate spindle for the grinding wheel and drive it via pulleys).

Yes, there is a bit of careful turning involved in making the wheel hub, but that is going to be the case whatever you do. For example, David Fenner wrote an article for MEW #160 describing a part finished Kennet that he had fitted a Wickes bench grinder to; he comments that he had to make an adapter to mount a cup wheel on the grinder spindle and that there was noticeable “swash” even after careful adaptation of the wheel, which would only be fixed by re-machining of the spindle end. At least with the Worden approach, you are starting with a decent quality motor where the spindle has minimal runout.

Regards,

Tony
3 January 2011 at 18:33 #61711
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

I have a new article on building the Worden.

Likely to be in MEW 174.

regards david

Edited By David Clark 1 on 03/01/2011 18:33:55
3 January 2011 at 20:00 #61713
Clive Farrar
Participant
@clivefarrar90441
I have made the more sophisticated one from WSP 35.

It was a good beginers project and can deliver some very good results.

I also made the mounting board with angle iron and ipcked up a 125w bench grinder from B&Q for a tenner. Diamond cup wheel fron RDG.

Grinder sheft was trued up as Harold states at the end of the book. An accurate spacer was then made to fit the cup wheel.

I have mainly done lathe tools. I rough grind, off hand on the othe 6″ grinder to get them some where near. Then I set up the grinding jig with the alloy angle gauges and polish the cutting edges up with the diamond wheel using the vernier feeds. I make the simple square bolck holders for doing a few milling cutters. I only intend ever doing the tips so i do not need the rotary collets jig he also lists drawings for.

The diamond wheel can not take lots of material off so you either need to use a grit wheel at the other end or a separate one like I do.

It is a bit of a faff swapping the angle iron around the base board.

Final point in the last MEW Harold states that he has made new 3mm side arms for his insead of the original 8mm. A good move if you ask me and I will be changing mine in due course. I have skinned my knuckles a couple of times getting the thick ones tight enough.

Regards Clive
3 January 2011 at 21:39 #61718
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello Clive.

I also made the grinding rest by Harold Hall and like You I had problems with my fingers. So I am also preparing to do the same operation.

I mounted my grinding rest on a two axis system instead of the L shaped base in order to achieve greater flexibility in the movements related to the grinding wheel.

Also, as You can see here: http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=7538&p=178871 I made a hollow in the lower arm spacer by two reasons> make the rest a little less heavy and create conditions for a screw head so I can fasten the rest to the two axis base.

I also made modifications in the levers (as You can see in the same picture) because I find “always” some other part of the rest in its way. But I’m not happy with that modification. I need to rethink about it.

best regards

Dias Costa
3 January 2011 at 22:35 #61722
Chris Trice
Participant
@christrice43267
Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 21/11/2009 19:40:26:

ps As it happens, I have bought every one of the WSP books, and have found the vast majority of interest. Certainly I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending the HH books, along with those by Tubal Cain.

Yep. Resoundingly seconded for both gentlemen.
4 January 2011 at 13:05 #61735
James B
Participant
@jamesb
Hi Ray,

Just my thoughts on your choice of Cutter Grinder.

I was considering which route to take myself – like you I enjoy making tooling, etc, as much as the models themselves. However, I ended up going for a second hand Mk1 Clarkson cutter grinder that came up, that came with the radiusing attachment – cost was less than the price of any of the kits (aside from Harold Halls grinding rests) and I was operational straight away.

The clarkson can be used for small area surface grinding, and size is not a problem – have sharpened large side & face cutters and slitting saws without problem.

It takes some time to get the hang of using the grinder effectively (not sure I am there yet!) and there is plenty of scope for tool making, with attachments to make – I have added some adjustable stops, etc to mine which I felt was useful in my application.

Planned attachments are a four facet drill sharpening attachment, and cylindrical grinding setup for tooling tapers, etc.

The lathes.co.uk website gives useful info on Clarksons, with images of the attachments that were produced for it.

Hope it helps. Let us know what you go for in the end.

James
4 January 2011 at 23:17 #61771
Niloch
Participant
@niloch
Mike Haughton has articles in issues 148 to 151 inclusive of MEW about the Clarkson tool and cutter grinder.
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