Hot air and stirling engines

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Hot air and stirling engines

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  • #4708
    Mark Smith 3
    Participant
      @marksmith3
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      #42204
      Mark Smith 3
      Participant
        @marksmith3

        I am interested in hot air and stirling engines of which I have built a couple (that work).  I would like to read articles by Andy Ross in magazines from the past. How do I access such articles?

        Edited By Mark Smith 3 on 07/07/2009 09:01:28

        #42222
        Ian S C
        Participant
          @iansc

          Hi Mark,I can’t help with the Andy Ross articles,but its good to see a fellow stirling engine builder.I’v built about a dozen of various types,none of them pressurised yet.I’ll put pictures up when I work out how to do it.My books are two of James G. Rizzo’s,I’d like to get his second hard cover book. Ian.S.C

          #42223
          Geoff Theasby
          Participant
            @geofftheasby
            I built two Stirling engines, one from scratch and one from a pre-machined kit.
            Neither works!
            The kit one runs a little longer when fired up, as opposed to being spun with a finger, but I can’t work out where the problem is.
             
            Regards
            Geoff
             
             
            #42235
            Mark Smith 3
            Participant
              @marksmith3
              Thanks for your replies guys. I have James Rizzo’s book as well as James senft. There is also a very good book by Roy Darlington and Keith Strong, Stirling and Hot Air Engines (designing and building experimental models). ISBN 978-1-86126-688-0. This an exellent book with many high quality photographs. The text is well presented and easy to read. I would love to get my hands on Andy Ross’s book Making Model Stirling Engines, but the price at Amazon for a second hand copy is $800 US! That’s about $1300 nz dollars.
              Geoff, I built several engines before I got one to work. It is very important there are no leaks in the working or power cylinders as even a pin hole will allow the gas to exhaust; though, strangely, some leakage past the piston can be tolerated as the model engines seem to run above and below atmospheric pressure. What air that sneaks passed, sneaks back on the so called compression stroke. Also, as you know, friction is the second biggest killer. I use bearing sets from old hard drives in all the linkages and that helps a lot, Some hard drives have quite big needle bearings that are good for the main shaft. 
              Hope this helps
              Mark

              Edited By Mark Smith 3 on 09/07/2009 10:17:13

              #42238
              Ian S C
              Participant
                @iansc

                Hi Geoff,if you take your time you’ll get them going,get rid of friction and air leaks.you may need to run them in by driving with an electric motor for an hour or two.Check that the displacer does’t leak,submerge it in hot water and look for bubbles.This does’nt work on my engines as I make mine with a tube for the shaft,I just put mine in water and feed in air from my compressor.
                Hey Mark that price for Andy Ross’s book is a little steep!I take it you are a Kiwi too,I live in Darfield Canterbury.I too use ball races from computor drives,I used to use ones from the hobby shop for RC cars.

                #42256
                Geoff Theasby
                Participant
                  @geofftheasby
                  Thanks for the suggestions about Stirling engines.
                  I will try running the kit built one for a while from one of my Stuart engines running on air from my compressor.   That should look suitably Heath Robinson!
                   
                  Regards
                  Geoff
                  #42276
                  Ian S C
                  Participant
                    @iansc

                    Geoff that sounds spot on,maybe it will work as a refrigerator instead,that would be ok.It some times helps if you run it in without compression,you’l use less air from the compressor.

                    #42303
                    Clive1958
                    Participant
                      @clive1958
                      Hi folks, its great to see people with an interest in stirling engines, I myself have only built two from kits, a low temperature differential and a thermal lag (both working), I have both James G. Rizzo’s books, Roy Darlington and Keith Strongs, stirling and hot air engines and an Andy Ross book called stirling cycle engines which is very good (and only cost 50p at a steam fair), so as you can see ive read a fair bit. Anyway, carry on building and reporting, I am just about to build my own from scratch and hopefully will report the progress as time permits, incidently with regard to minimising dead space, has anyone considered putting the power piston below the displacer piston and filling the power cylinder and dead space with a thin oil which would be virtually non compressible, any comments welcome.
                       
                      Regards
                      Clive
                      #42304
                      Clive1958
                      Participant
                        @clive1958
                        sorry folks posted it twice

                        Edited By Clive1958 on 12/07/2009 13:07:37

                        Edited By Clive1958 on 12/07/2009 13:08:55

                        #42306
                        Ian S C
                        Participant
                          @iansc

                          Clive 1958,how do you propose to keep oil out of the displacer?If your running the diplacer and power piston in the same cylinder ie beta type there should only be perhaps 1mm between the piston and the displacer.Even a gama or V engine doesn’t have much dead space in the tube from the displacer to the power cylinder,you’d be better looking at regeneration,and pressurisation.See James Rizzo’s “Tuba”or”Prova II”,I think there are others in his 2nd hard covered book(I’v only got the 1st one and the paper back),you need to keep oil away!You can always use a diaphragm,and do without a solid piston,there was a bit about this in Model Engineer a few years back.

                          #42317
                          Clive1958
                          Participant
                            @clive1958
                            Ian S C, I was thinking of a Gamma engine with the power cylinder below the displacer and partially filling the power cylinder with oil, although if it ran at any great speed, the oil would probably get thrown into the displacer cylinder so maybe not one of my better ideas.
                            Another (probably stupid) idea I had was to use a s/steel displacer cylinder with a lightweight steel displacer/regenerator moved by a magnet driven by the flywheel, along with a diaphragm power cylinder this would allow a totally sealed engine and no friction due to piston rods, although there would be some drag between the displacer and cylinder, I realise I could get similar conditions with a marble engine but was wondering if this might give greater speed althought  i’m not sure how the displacer would react at higher speeds, any thought’s?
                            #42323
                            Ian S C
                            Participant
                              @iansc

                              Clive,not sure how you’d get rid of friction,I think some of the very early engines had little wheels on the displacer!You’d have to keep the magnet away from too much heat,possibly a guide at the cold end(could be brass or ally and sealed).I’v got 2 engines of the Ringbom type similar toJ.R.Senft’s Tapper,they work ok although not over powerful,but they show that you don’t have to connect the displacer to the crankshaft.Also got a free piston engine,so you don’t even need a crankshaft!The piston on that one has a large magnet(came from the magntron of a dead microwave oven)on the bottom end this moves inside a coil and generates a small voltage-2-3volts ac,I don’t know if this sort of thing could be reversed,maybe the magnet replaced with an iron core and a current to the coil,a switch could be opperated by the piston.The piston and displacer rest on springs,these replace the action of the flywheel of a normal engine.oops the coil and iron core would have to be attached to the displacer,could work but you would need a power supply.

                              Edited By Ian S C on 13/07/2009 15:31:09

                              #42335
                              Clive1958
                              Participant
                                @clive1958
                                Ian S C, thanks for your reply, it has given me a few things to think about, I think my first engine will be either a Beta or Gamma and will be built as a test bed for experimenting, I intend to try pressurisation, regeneration and diaphragm pistons, although i dont think i’ll use pressurisation and a diaphragm on  the same engine.
                                 
                                Clive
                                #42336
                                Ian S C
                                Participant
                                  @iansc

                                  Clive,start with a simple V engine get it going well,my first one was a little V water cooled engine,when ok.Its now rebuilt as the smaller of my 2 versions of Tapper.Please could you tell me what the piston in your LTD motor is made of,if its carbon I don’t know if I can get it although there is an outfit in Christchurch that makes brushes for electric motors so I could try them.

                                  #42340
                                  Clive1958
                                  Participant
                                    @clive1958
                                    Ian, The piston on my ltd is a plastic diaphragm, have you thought about the carbon rods used for carbon arc welding, or possibly the ferrite rod used in old radio tuners, other than that motor brushes should work fine.
                                     
                                    Clive
                                    #42351
                                    Mark Smith 3
                                    Participant
                                      @marksmith3
                                      Hello Ian, yes I am a kiwi and I live in Christchurch. My email address is mark.louise@xtra.co.nz if you feel like getting in  touch.
                                      Clive has some good ideas that seem to filter through my mind as well. The idea of using oil to reduce dead space is probably doomed to failure because oil would carbonise and fill up the gap between the displacer and its cylinder not to mention what it would do to any regenerator in place. Water, however, is a possibility  as described by Graham Walker in  his very comprehensive book on stirling engines. Some water, like the oil, will find its way to the hot end as vapour and act as a two component compound fluid that has the potential to be more efficient at absorbing heat and rejecting it. The water also acts as a lubricant and helps seal the piston from passing air.
                                      The idea of using magnets to drive the displacer ,too, has merit but there is a danger that the displacer could go out of phase as the engine reaches higher revs. Someone will have to try it out.
                                      I am working on a design that uses a diaphram made of leather and rubber combo(stroke 2cm). The displacer cylinder and power cylinder are at 90degrees to each other and the displacer is driven from a rod that passes down the centre of the diaphram connecting rod which in  turn passes through a gimbled yoke. The crank angle moves the displacer in the correct phase. This allows for a sealed system as the displacer rod is contained within the pressure space of the engine and nothing is open to the atmosphere. This is a little hard to describe without diagrams but I will let you know how well it works, if it works. We are full of ideas aren’t we.
                                      Mark
                                      #42352
                                      Ian S C
                                      Participant
                                        @iansc

                                        The carbon rods for carbon arc welding are only about 8-10mm dia,ferrite rods are not carbon.A diaphragm sounds a good 2nd choice.Started cutting metal for the motor just before tea time tonight,changed my mind,too cold!Do it tomorrow(why do today what you can put off until tomorrow),i’mcutting the bottom out of a large frying-pan,13″dia.I’v got two of them,one for top other for bottom.I’v got some 6″ plastic pipe,foam for displacer,6″diax3/8″ perspex disc for the flywheel,plenty of small ball races.I,ll just have to work out the power piston/diaphragm. Thanks for the info.Ian.s.c..ps you’v proberbly noticed I’m a bit of a night owl.

                                        #42354
                                        Mark Smith 3
                                        Participant
                                          @marksmith3
                                          Ian to upload photos just go to my photos in the left column and create an album.
                                          Mark
                                          #42356
                                          Ian S C
                                          Participant
                                            @iansc

                                            Hi mark,motor looks good,should be reasonably powerful(hot air- mouse power),What is bore and stroke?

                                            #42358
                                            Mark Smith 3
                                            Participant
                                              @marksmith3

                                              Hi Ian, Bore is 2cm Stroke is 2cm. Reasonable power on Meths much better with Gas. On gas it runs so fast I think something might break.

                                              #42360
                                              Clive1958
                                              Participant
                                                @clive1958
                                                Ian, probably not much use to you but ive just seen 12mm carbon arc rods on ebay.
                                                #42363
                                                Ian S C
                                                Participant
                                                  @iansc

                                                  Mark thanks for the info,you need something for it to drive,a little generator,water pump or anything that goes round and round.It will stop it flying apart,Next you need a tacho of some sort,ie James Rizzo’s books show a mechanical arrangment,I made one with a 125 tooth gear and a home made worm. Clive,I don’t think so.I would be interested in whether the carbon for the piston is lubricated as some brushes appear to be or not.Don’t even know what size I need yet.

                                                  #42368
                                                  Ian S C
                                                  Participant
                                                    @iansc

                                                    Just remembered,I’v got a piece of 20mm dia carbon impregnated teflon rod,and I think 15mm is what I need for a piston on a LTD motor with 150mm dia displacer,so things are comming together.I’m going to try and get some nylon screws to join the top and bottom,8 should do.Next job before the motor is to repair my cheap chinese DTI the top fell off when I was setting up the fry pan in the lathe,its held on with an O ring,and that came out in three bits!

                                                    #42460
                                                    John Wood1
                                                    Participant
                                                      @johnwood1
                                                      Hi all, just spotted this thread for the first time today as I have been in France for three weeks. It’s good to see an interest in Stirling engines. I have built two but can’t get either to work yet so all the above gen is very helpful. I understand that friction and any form of mechanical resistance can be fatal so things like checking the fit of each moving part before assembly, if using bearings clean the oil out of them first, don’t oil anything until you get it running are important. I must have a go now I see all this interest.
                                                       
                                                      All the best,  John
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