Model Electric Motors?

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Model Electric Motors?

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  • #4290
    JasonB
    Moderator
      @jasonb
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      #379582
      JasonB
      Moderator
        @jasonb

        I happened to be watching one of Gil Garceau's videos of the recent Coolsprings show and there was some footage of old electric motors. I have seen a few models of generators but not motors and thought that one could make an interesting subject.

        The smaller motors and fan motors could be built 1:1 or something like the larger motor at the start would suit 1/4 scale.

        Anyone think something like this would make an interesting project or have links to other models that I have not seen?

        Video should start where the motors are but if not it's at about 16.30

        #379589
        Neil Wyatt
        Moderator
          @neilwyatt

          Fair game, I would say. Nice details like the adjustable brush holder.

          I think a few practical designs for electric motors appeared in early MEs.

          #379591
          I.M. OUTAHERE
          Participant
            @i-m-outahere

            Could make an interesting project and a bit of a change from the usual stuff model engineers tend to get into , the hard thing may be emulating the insulation on the windings as it looks like some sort of linen wrapping – looks a bit like litz wire only bigger although if you used enameled copper wire only the top layer would need the insulation for effect and maybe you could use the high temp woven stuff you see in stoves etc ? . I wonder if the patents are available so you can scale them correctly ?

            The only models i have seen are usually of dynamos .

            #379595
            Ron Laden
            Participant
              @ronladen17547

              Yes Jason, I think they would make interesting projects, a bit of a challenge also.

              If you look on youtube for " The history of electric motors" you should find a short video by a company who supply old electric motor kits, not that you would want a kit but have a look at the them. I watched it a while back and the mechanisms on them are fascinating and could give you some ideas.

              Ron

              p.s. have a look at this site Jason http://www.earlyelectricmotors.com/about/   open reproductions top right of page, some very nice motors there with makers names.

              Edited By Ron Laden on 07/11/2018 14:41:25

              #379601
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133
                Posted by XD 351 on 07/11/2018 13:36:29:

                I wonder if the patents are available so you can scale them correctly ?

                .

                This search returned 500 results: **LINK**

                https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=electric+motor&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=18000101+%3A+19000101&PA=&IN=&CPC=&IC=

                Sorry, I haven't got time to read them all

                MichaelG.

                #379603
                I.M. OUTAHERE
                Participant
                  @i-m-outahere
                  Posted by Michael Gilligan on 07/11/2018 15:18:40:

                  Posted by XD 351 on 07/11/2018 13:36:29:

                  I wonder if the patents are available so you can scale them correctly ?

                  .

                  This search returned 500 results: **LINK**

                  https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=electric+motor&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=18000101+%3A+19000101&PA=&IN=&CPC=&IC=

                  Sorry, I haven't got time to read them all

                  MichaelG.

                  😳

                  Should keep Jason busy for a few weeks making all of those !

                  #379604
                  Neil Wyatt
                  Moderator
                    @neilwyatt

                    Not cheap, but if your make a modest sized engine there's cotton covered wire here:

                    http://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/dcc_wire.html

                    Artificial silk covered is even more expensive.

                    Neil

                    #379623
                    SillyOldDuffer
                    Moderator
                      @sillyoldduffer

                      Isn't making the core more difficult than authentic looking wire?

                      Motor cores were first made of soft iron, but soon switched to Silicon Steel. To reduce eddy losses the core should be laminated, which is usually done by stamping because Silicon Steel is hard to machine. You could probably get round that problem except Silicon Steel sheet doesn't seem to be sold in small quantities – minimum order 5 metric tons! Nor is soft iron easy to find. The laminations out of a transformer are the wrong shape, and reusing an existing motor core is, well, just a rewind, not a model.

                      On the subject of producing authentic cotton or silk insulated wire, a braiding machine would make an interesting model too. I've often thought it strange that model engineers tend to concentrate on engines when spinning, weaving, printers, Pascal calculators, Enigma machines and many other mechanical marvels are equally rewarding.

                      Dave

                       

                      Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 07/11/2018 18:12:13

                      #379627
                      I.M. OUTAHERE
                      Participant
                        @i-m-outahere

                        I find this mechanism simply amazing !

                        **LINK**

                        Not only that but the mathematics, tools and skill these people had way back then simply stuns me !

                        Dave, the devils in the detail ! If you’re going to go to the trouble of building a scale model you don’t want to ruin it by taking shortcuts or leaving out the little details that really finish it off , its a bit like spending years building a model of traction engine then whacking a set of mag wheels on it because they were easy to fit !

                        Edited By Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2018 09:40:07

                        #379632
                        Tim Stevens
                        Participant
                          @timstevens64731

                          It should be possible to 'fake' cotton-covered windings, by using modern enamelled copper, completing the winding, and coating it with a layer of varnish (paint, etc) which is tinted or stained to mimic the appearance of cotton soaked in shellac varnish and then oil. I wonder if you would go to the trouble of using scale wire?

                          Cheers, Tim

                          And PS a dynamo and a motor of the same period will look identical, generally speaking.

                          #379670
                          Neil Wyatt
                          Moderator
                            @neilwyatt
                            Posted by XD 351 on 07/11/2018 18:35:02:

                            I find this mechanism simply amazing !

                            **LINK**

                            Not only that but the mathematics, tools and skill these people had way back then simply stuns me !

                            Dave, the devils in the detail ! If you’re going to go to the trouble of building a scale model you don’t want to ruin it by taking shortcuts or leaving out the little details that really finish it off , its a bit like spending years building a model of traction engine then whacking a set of mag wheels on it because they were easy to fit !

                            Err… that link is just trying to get me to give money to Clickspring…

                            Neil

                            Edited By Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2018 09:40:19

                            #379680
                            Michael Gilligan
                            Participant
                              @michaelgilligan61133
                              Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/11/2018 22:02:22:

                              Posted by XD 351 on 07/11/2018 18:35:02:

                              I find this mechanism simply amazing !

                              **LINK**

                              [ … ]

                              Err… that link is just trying to get me to give money to Clickspring…

                              Neil

                              .

                              That is an 'amazing mechanism' devil

                              MichaelG.

                              Edited By Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2018 09:40:30

                              #379694
                              I.M. OUTAHERE
                              Participant
                                @i-m-outahere
                                Posted by Neil Wyatt on 07/11/2018 22:02:22:

                                Posted by XD 351 on 07/11/2018 18:35:02:

                                I find this mechanism simply amazing !

                                **LINK**

                                Not only that but the mathematics, tools and skill these people had way back then simply stuns me !

                                Dave, the devils in the detail ! If you’re going to go to the trouble of building a scale model you don’t want to ruin it by taking shortcuts or leaving out the little details that really finish it off , its a bit like spending years building a model of traction engine then whacking a set of mag wheels on it because they were easy to fit !

                                Err… that link is just trying to get me to give money to Clickspring…

                                Neil

                                Sorry that wasn’t my intention! Please edit my post to remove that link if possible .

                                Try this .

                                Edited By Neil Wyatt on 08/11/2018 09:40:41

                                #379703
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb

                                  Well it looks like something along the lines of the Edison or C&C will get added to the future projects list and I did find something else while googling about for these that is likely to be made sooner rather than later.

                                  Some do seem to have had the windings wrapped in thin cotton fabric and doped with presumably shelac so it would only be the exposed tails that would need suitable period insulation. I do use the cotton insulated two tone wires on the hit and miss engines and also a bit for work like the old twisted lighting flex. (If you want old look lighting components then try Urban Cottage Industries)

                                  As XD says a lot of model engineers stick to the same subjects, over the last 18months or so I have enjoyed trying out a few things that are a bit different to the usual slide valve steam model or side shaft hit & miss. So far I think I have done a flame licker, oscillator, first propane powered, first hot tube ignition, epicyclic gearbox, hot air engine. I also have lined up a rocking valve steam engine, flame ignition non compression IC, star wheel 4-stroke rather than usual timing gears but have no fear there is not a loco on that list. smile p

                                  #379707
                                  Ron Laden
                                  Participant
                                    @ronladen17547

                                    Hi Jason,

                                    I dont know if you looked at the pictures on the earlyelectricmotors.com link I posted, but I was really taken with the Bourbouze motor with its top beam and flywheel, I thought that a really nice piece of model engineering, though its obviously been done and you are probably looking for something fresh.

                                    Ron

                                    #379708
                                    JasonB
                                    Moderator
                                      @jasonb

                                      Ron, I looked before you added your edit so will have a look at the other link now..

                                      #379712
                                      Ron Laden
                                      Participant
                                        @ronladen17547
                                        Posted by JasonB on 08/11/2018 08:06:12:

                                        Ron, I looked before you added your edit so will have a look at the other link now..

                                        Jason, if you go to videos on the site there is one of the Bourbouze running, very nice.

                                        #379713
                                        Michael Gilligan
                                        Participant
                                          @michaelgilligan61133
                                          Posted by Ron Laden on 07/11/2018 14:09:58:

                                          p.s. have a look at this site Jason http://www.earlyelectricmotors.com/about/ open reproductions top right of page, some very nice motors there with makers names.

                                          Edited By Ron Laden on 07/11/2018 14:41:25

                                          .

                                          That's a great link, Ron yes

                                          Thanks

                                          MichaelG.

                                          #379724
                                          Brian H
                                          Participant
                                            @brianh50089

                                            Does anyone do drawings or even kits for early electric motors?

                                            Brian

                                            #379727
                                            JasonB
                                            Moderator
                                              @jasonb

                                              Kits from Ron's earlier link

                                              #379730
                                              Brian H
                                              Participant
                                                @brianh50089

                                                Many thanks Jason, I can feel a Christmas or birthday present idea coming on!

                                                Brian

                                                #379741
                                                Ian S C
                                                Participant
                                                  @iansc

                                                  The first year of Model Engineer 1898 had drawings for a number of electric motors/generators, and this continued for many years.

                                                  I'v got a couple of books, "Small Electric Motor Construction" by J. Gordon Hall, a Percival Marshall publication, and "Small Dynamos and how to make them" Mechanic & Work Handbook, written by experts. Those books date back to the 1920s. Then a more modern book, "Practical Design of Small Motors and Transformers" by E. Molloy, first published in 1940, with 6 editions to 1947.

                                                  The only thing I find difficult to make is the commutator. Some of the materials used just arn't around any more.

                                                  Ian S C

                                                  #379887
                                                  JasonB
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @jasonb

                                                    As I said while looking around the net for these early electric motors I came across an image of a toy electric engine from 1908 and then found a video which says it dates from 1908 and would have cost $1.25 from the likes of Sears or Roebuck. It is not the same principal but looks like it will make a fun project.

                                                    electric.jpg

                                                    lecky1.jpg

                                                    After a bit of sketching last night with Alibre it seems to work, well at least on the screen it does! By moving the reversing lever one of the two spring wire contacts will touch the conrod and complete the circuit which draws the rocker towards the magnets. Time to start winding some wiresmiley

                                                     

                                                    Edited By JasonB on 09/11/2018 07:56:19

                                                    #379890
                                                    JasonB
                                                    Moderator
                                                      @jasonb

                                                      A quick question for the more electronically minded members.

                                                      I plan to use a bobbin to wind the wire around and use the core to retain that to the vertical plate that sticks up from the base. Question is can I screw the core straight into the plate or should I insulate the hole and retain with an insulated washer and nut on the far side? The base does become part of the circuit.

                                                      lecky3.jpg

                                                      Thanks, Jason

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