Tank Cupolas…

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Tank Cupolas…

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  • #332159
    Neil Wyatt
    Moderator
      @neilwyatt

      Can anyone answer this question…

      On a Vicker's Light tank or similar the 'turret' bears a smaller 'cupola' which the commander sits in or pokes their head out of.

      Form appearances, this is designed to rotate, which make sense.

      But do they?

      Neil

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      #4280
      Neil Wyatt
      Moderator
        @neilwyatt
        #332177
        DMB
        Participant
          @dmb

          Hi Neil,

          If stuck, try " Bovvy" – Bovington Tank Museum in Dorset.

          Merry Xmas n rgds,

          John

          #332195
          Jon Gibbs
          Participant
            @jongibbs59756

            In all of the photos I've seen the hatches appear to be positioned fore and aft which would suggest that the cupola was fixed but there appears to be a bit of a discrepancy between these photos…

            which seem to show the view-port facing slightly rightwards (first pic) or directly forwards (2nd & 3rd).

            So, it's hard to know for sure.

            Jon

            Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/12/2017 15:26:27

            Edit: Ahhh, Wikipedia says… "The Mk VIA had a return roller removed from the top of the leading bogey and attached to the hull sides instead, and also possessed a faceted cupola.[7] The Mk VIB was mechanically identical to the Mk VIA but with a few minor differences to make production simpler, including a one-piece armoured louvre over the radiator instead of a two-piece louvre, and a plain circular cupola instead of the faceted type.[7] "

            So, perhaps the VIA faceted cupola has the two viewports (picture 1) whereas the VIB has the one viewport facing forward. 

            Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/12/2017 15:32:59

            #332200
            Neil Wyatt
            Moderator
              @neilwyatt

              Thanks John,

              Two of those photos are new to me (and I have collected a fair few). The second one shows the rather basic sight well; how on earth you were expected to use it looking through the slits with the visor closed I have no idea!

              I think the best bet for now is simply not to fix it in place!

              Here's progress so far, waiting for proofs of ME 263 to upload has given me time to fit the smoke grenade launchers today.

              turret 2.jpg

              turret takes shape.jpg

              #332201
              SillyOldDuffer
              Moderator
                @sillyoldduffer

                All the photos I've seen show the cupola pointing forward on top of the turret. That implies it's fixed.

                I don't think the photos prove it though. The commander would normally want to see what was in front of the gun, making the 'cupola ahead' position most likely to be photographed. It's still possible that the commander was able to rotate the cupola to get an all-round view when necessary.

                As I can only see one viewport in the cupola, if it's fixed, the commander would have to slowly turn the whole turret to see behind or to the sides. Not ideal in a vehicle intended for reconnaissance, therefore I guess the cupola rotates. On the other hand, you wouldn't want the cupola to come off under attack. It would be safer for the commander if it were firmly fixed.

                Anyone live near the Bovington Tank Museum?

                #332203
                SillyOldDuffer
                Moderator
                  @sillyoldduffer

                  Looking again at Jon's first picture, although the hatch covers are aligned front/back, the closed viewport is looking right. It's in a different position compared with Jon's second picture where the open viewport is looking ahead.

                  The photos appear to show the cupola moves whilst the hatch stays aligned with the turret. Surely that's unlikely? Unless the commander sits in a fixed ahead seat to which the hatch is attached, inside a rotating cupola?

                  Dave

                  #332208
                  JasonB
                  Moderator
                    @jasonb

                    Neil, why not ask on our sister forum Mil Mod?

                    #332209
                    Neil Wyatt
                    Moderator
                      @neilwyatt

                      There's a second viewport on the back of the cupola. Logically it must(?) rotate, but I imagine it had a detent for straight ahead. bear in mind that outside exercises/combat the commander would spend most of the time with his head out of the hatch.I'm not sure I have seen one genuine combat picture

                      If I've learned anything from this, it's that a small, stumpy tank looks very different at different angles!

                      Neil

                      #332213
                      Neil Wyatt
                      Moderator
                        @neilwyatt
                        Posted by JasonB on 15/12/2017 16:32:31:

                        Neil, why not ask on our sister forum Mil Mod?

                        It won't let me log in!

                        Will have to wait for MEW 263 to be finished then I will sort it

                        #332232
                        SillyOldDuffer
                        Moderator
                          @sillyoldduffer

                          3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

                          Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

                          vlt.jpg

                          Number 2: Damaged tank, hatch and viewport skewed anticlockwise relative to turret rear

                          vlt2.jpg

                          Number 3: viewport facing sideways towards camera.

                          vlt3.jpg

                          I think the best explanation is that the cupola rotates.

                          Dave

                          #332236
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb
                            Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 16:51:06:

                            It won't let me log in!

                            Don't forget you are Stubby on there and not Neil.

                            #332245
                            Neil Wyatt
                            Moderator
                              @neilwyatt
                              Posted by JasonB on 15/12/2017 18:47:22:

                              Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 16:51:06:

                              It won't let me log in!

                              Don't forget you are Stubby on there and not Neil.

                              Yes, but which one of my seven email addresses….

                              surprise

                              Neil

                              #332249
                              MW
                              Participant
                                @mw27036

                                Don't spose you could ring up the nearest bloke who's got one lying around in the garage, go round his house and when you're sitting in the top see if you can shimmy from left to right and notice the whole ring move? I'm sure they've had these kinds of questions before.cheeky

                                #332254
                                Alan Vos
                                Participant
                                  @alanvos39612
                                  Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 15/12/2017 18:39:50:

                                  3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

                                  Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

                                  vlt.jpg

                                  That is the image I find most persuasive. That sharp internal corner below the front of the cupola would seem an odd feature for a tank if fixed.

                                  #332255
                                  Ed Duffner
                                  Participant
                                    @edduffner79357

                                    In my plans for a Tiger 1 from Bovington Tank Museum (2003) is a list of other plans they keep, including:

                                    Light Mk VI
                                    Light Mk VIA
                                    Light Tank Mk VIB
                                    Light Tank Mk VIC

                                    Ed.

                                    #332259
                                    Neil Wyatt
                                    Moderator
                                      @neilwyatt
                                      Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 15/12/2017 18:39:50:

                                      3 screen captures from Tank Chats#6 on youtube

                                      Number one below: hatch opening to side, no viewport visible

                                      vlt.jpg

                                      Number 2: Damaged tank, hatch and viewport skewed anticlockwise relative to turret rear

                                      vlt2.jpg

                                      Number 3: viewport facing sideways towards camera.

                                      vlt3.jpg

                                      I think the best explanation is that the cupola rotates.

                                      Dave

                                      Wow, that's great, the video is very good, I'm following the Bovingdon one for most features.

                                      Damn my whole evening gone to tank chats…

                                      Neil

                                      #332266
                                      MW
                                      Participant
                                        @mw27036
                                        Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2017 20:44:02:

                                        Damn my whole evening gone to tank chats…

                                        Neil

                                        Given how cool these photos are, I can think of worse ways to spend an evening cheeky

                                        Michael W

                                        #332269
                                        Neil Wyatt
                                        Moderator
                                          @neilwyatt

                                          > That sharp internal corner below the front of the cupola would seem an odd feature for a tank if fixed.

                                          There's a half-round trough that runs across the right 2/3 of the top of the turret casting that shadow. I think it's probably some sort of cover for vent holes.

                                          Neil

                                          #332317
                                          MW
                                          Participant
                                            @mw27036

                                            Can we have an object in the foreground like a penny, to compare the size of this turret, (is it all 3D printed or a modified kit?) It looks pretty chunky on that worktop!

                                            PS. with the position of those rivets it would suggest to me that the cupola was a fixed feature, possibly designed simply to give ample cover to anyone sitting/viewing out the top. 

                                            Michael W

                                             

                                            Edited By Michael-w on 16/12/2017 13:44:25

                                            #332321
                                            Mick B1
                                            Participant
                                              @mickb1

                                              I can't imagine that a cupola would be fixed to show the commander only what's under his guns – you might as well put him in blinkers.

                                              #332326
                                              mike T
                                              Participant
                                                @miket56243

                                                In the years leading up to and even during WW2 it was normal (the done thing) for the tank commander to have head and shoulders outside the turret or cupola at all times. That was the only way he could have 360* vision and situation awareness of the battle going on around him. If you could not see your enemy or your target, you would soon be dead.

                                                If the tank came under direct small arms fire or a concentrated mortar bomb attack, then the commander could duck down inside. He would still need to put his head outside from time to time to identify his attackers and return fire.

                                                A fixed cupola aligned with the main guns would have worked. Perhaps the cupola could be unlocked and rotated but straight ahead would be the normal position for it.

                                                Mike the tank

                                                #332328
                                                Neil Wyatt
                                                Moderator
                                                  @neilwyatt
                                                  Posted by Michael-w on 16/12/2017 13:41:00:

                                                  Can we have an object in the foreground like a penny, to compare the size of this turret, (is it all 3D printed or a modified kit?) It looks pretty chunky on that worktop!

                                                  PS. with the position of those rivets it would suggest to me that the cupola was a fixed feature, possibly designed simply to give ample cover to anyone sitting/viewing out the top.

                                                  10" diameter, the black top is in four parts, the white sides in six.

                                                  Neil

                                                  #332329
                                                  mike T
                                                  Participant
                                                    @miket56243

                                                    British tank crews normally wore woolen berets, not tin hats during a fight. If you were hit by an anti-tank round, you never heard it coming and it did not matter much whether your head was inside or outside the turret. Small arms fire was all you protect yourself from, the rest of the time the commander was 'head out' and looking everywhere.

                                                    Mike the tank

                                                    #332332
                                                    MW
                                                    Participant
                                                      @mw27036
                                                      Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2017 16:33:02:.

                                                      10" diameter, the black top is in four parts, the white sides in six.

                                                      Neil

                                                      surprise

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