Steam Boat Ban

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Steam Boat Ban

This topic has 54 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 15 January 2015 at 21:27 by Steven Vine.

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26 April 2011 at 22:01 #67567
ChrisH
Participant
@chrish
Just read that New Brighton council have banned model steam boats on the New Brighton boating lake, in case the boiler explodes and injures someone – blame elf ‘n safety. Again.

The fact that the lake has been operational for about 80 years, and there are no recorded injuries, ever, is neither here nor there. There’s a elf ‘n safety jobsworth in there somewhere, justifying his/her existence without a clue about what they are about..

The country has gone completely bonkers………….

ChrisH
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26 April 2011 at 22:01 #4064
ChrisH
Participant
@chrish
26 April 2011 at 22:03 #67568
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
In that case they had better take all the central heating out of council offices in case the boiler blows up………………………..

John S.
27 April 2011 at 10:05 #67600
IanT
Participant
@iant
Well Chris, (for a change) I have some sympathy for the Council.

Are these live steam boat owners operating high pressure boilers? If so are they subject to some form of regular boiler testing regime? Do they have appropriate public liability insurance? Do they operate a code of practice designed to protect members of the public from them (and vice versa).

These are all matters that every Model Engineering Club or Society has to consider and take suitable measures to address. Even at private GTGs – our Hosts allow no one to steam any engine without the production of a valid boiler certificate.

If they haven’t already done so – I’d suggest the local boating enthusiasts form a Club and organise the neccessary boiler testing and get themselves insured appropriately – and then they might find the local council more receptive.

Regards,

Ian T
27 April 2011 at 10:15 #67604
Keith Long
Participant
@keithlong89920
I believe that it was the local boat club that got the council to introduce the ban – also covers IC engine powered boats as well. All on the basis of “danger” to children – they might blow up! If you have a search for news items about this and on other forums as well it looks as though there is a LOT of background politics involved – as well as private agendas being followed I suspect.

Keith
27 April 2011 at 14:04 #67615
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Oh well i’m Ok, my boat’s just been converted from steam to hot air, the only thing anyone will suffer from is bordom, its sloooow, and it goes for as long as it has fuel, usually 1/2 an hour at a time. I suppose its time for takeover by electric power, a nephew found that out when he went to Austrailia, he could not run his hydroplane, with it 15 cc glowplug motor any where near Brisbane, it was the same rule for flying. Ian S C
27 April 2011 at 14:05 #67616
DMB
Participant
@dmb
`Metro` newspaper today, page 17, is a photo of a dejected Nick Clark apparently seated at a table with his little steamboat on a typical model boat stand. In length, it looks about 3″ longer than the width of his shoulders with a very small vertical boiler. He is quoted as saying top speed is 3 knots.High pressure boilers, IanT? Idont think so.

Good solution seems to be to start a campaign to remove central heating boilers from all council offices!
27 April 2011 at 17:27 #67625
Ian Abbott
Participant
@ianabbott31222
I’d get a few friends together and launch as many steam boat onto the lake, then wait for the council h&s officer to try to get them out without burning his fingers….. Then again, he may consider it unsafe for him/her to enter the lake without backup from the coast guard, so I’d say you’re safe. Remember the bloke lying face down in a two foot deep pond, with the ambulance et al standing on the bank, refusing to get him.

Sorry IanT, but this hobby doesn’t need people like you helping to mess it up. There are enough self important dunderheads out there already.

Ian
27 April 2011 at 18:44 #67627
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I would have thought most of these small steam boat boilers come under the bar/lts rule so don’t need any form of certification. Maybe thats why they want to ban them as if they are uncertified and untested there could be risks and the owners are unlikely to have insurance.

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 27/04/2011 18:44:33
27 April 2011 at 20:08 #67631
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
No, the reason that there is a bar/ltrs rule is that boilers below that size are not in fact dangerous and therefore don’t need testing. So the legislature has in fact already determined that there is no real risk.

The aerosol cans in your house contain combustible gas, under a higher pressure than small boilers run, in a container so thin that you could push a nail through it with your bare hands. They don’t seem to come with test certificates or safety valves

So far as I have ever been able to find out, history records one explosion of a boiler in a model boat, a somewhat larger model than described above. As a result, the boat sank, but there was no injury to bystanders. See if you can find the Model Engineer where the mishap was described!

However, as Barnum said, there is one born every minute…but how do so many of them manage to get into politics?

regards

John
27 April 2011 at 22:46 #67639
c
Participant
@c
See if you can find the Model Engineer where the mishap was described!

Try Model Engineer Volume 75 page 239.
28 April 2011 at 08:08 #67643
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
The key to the real intention are in the words “The fact that the lake has been operational for about 80 years,”. The lake is ‘old hat’ and the council want to do something else with the space it occupies. However it was probably ‘dedicated’ under one of the ‘Charities Acts’ and the council have to keep it as a boating pool (unless no one uses it).

I had a look round New Brighton with Google Earth and I think I have found it. It is empty to stop Drunks and Junkies from drowning in it (saves on insurance) but next it must be filled in so that other folk will not fall into it and hurt themselves. But the land it occupies is also valuable it could be used to build really useful like a new rehabilitation centre for crippled penguins and disorientated condors.
28 April 2011 at 13:13 #67657
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Or a Model Engineering club, They might dig a bit out and form a boating lake. Ian S C
28 April 2011 at 22:26 #67667
Steve Withnell
Participant
@stevewithnell34426
In the article, they claimed they had introduced the ban on recommendation of the model boat club. Be interested to hear the view of the model boat club first hand.
29 April 2011 at 08:30 #67672
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
i’d be interested to know how the boat club members power their boats. If they are electric they are probably using Lithium cells that have a habit of catching fire and exploding…we just had a fatality a week or so back in NZ from a laptop fire. If they are powered by infernal combustion then the fuel is highly combustible as well as carcinogenic and also attractive to solvent abusers. According to what I just saw at the local model shop, even the plastic tanks contain substances “that are known to the State of California to be carcinogenic”. I suppose if the boats are powered by the wind they are relatively harmless, so long as they don’t use any lead in the keel, although we have just seen that the wind itself is not so harmless.

c, you have too much time on your hands! It was indeed quite some time ago, and if I recall correctly, the boiler was not one that would have passed any reasonable visual check, let alone a pressure test.

regards

John
29 April 2011 at 10:46 #67681
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
How about Pop Pop boats? I had quite a big one that I sailed on the lake a the the recreation center, The lake is about 100 M x 40 M, it was good, no propeler to get caught in the weeds, it later got converted to steam, with a 3 X 6 mm wobbler, the boiler was suported by the steam pipe to the engine, and last time it sailed I left it a bit long before bringing it in, the boiler ran dry, the solder on the steam pipe melted, boiler fell off, nothing. I’m staying with hot air, although most visitors have electric power, ranging from battery drills, windscreen wiper motors, and motors designed for model boats. I’ll have to wait until October for the regatta and see what turns up. Ian S C
29 April 2011 at 15:54 #67690
IanT
Participant
@iant
Well I can see I’m in a minority of one here and I will admit to not knowing what kind of live steam boats are in use – or what kind (or size) of boilers they might be fitted with.

But even a “Dunnderhead” (like myself) knows a little about the expansive qualities of steam – enough not to compare a live steam boiler to a central heating boiler for instance – or an aerosol can (although I would suggest you don’t throw one on a fire!).

As to small boilers (& not needing testing or insurance) I think we may be confusing the need for new boilers (under 2 litres) not to be CE stamped although smaller new boilers still need to be built to “Sound Engineering Principles” (SEP) – and of course none of this applies to a boiler built by a hobbyist for their own use – which to my mind makes some form of regular (independent) inspection regime even more important..

But even a small “low-presure” boiler can be potentially dangerous if (say) the safety valve is stuck and I most certainly wouldn’t want my hand near one (or a childs) if this were the case. Couple that to the existance of ambulance chasing lawyers in this country these days and I feel caution is a sensible approach in these matters.

This is just my view – and you are (of course) more than welcome to yours.

Regards,

Ian T
29 April 2011 at 16:29 #67691
Steve Withnell
Participant
@stevewithnell34426
There is a clip on Youtube of a small Mamod style boiler exploding with a number of people in close proximity. Result – scared witless, no first aid needed. Supervise children properly, but don’t stop them experiencing life. Don’t ban highly competent model engineers from demonstrating and enjoying the use of small steam boilers or insist on cost prohibitive testing and insurance.

Is there a material track record of small (ie <1L) steam boilers maiming people in public places? If there is then fair enough, but I do not believe that’s the case.

If these things are banned then you better ban italian coffee makers too as they are a much greater risk than a little low pressure boiler. If the safety valve stick on one of those things sticks, then you don’t want to be in the room.

Just my opinion
29 April 2011 at 16:36 #67692
Dusty
Participant
@dusty
Ian

Please, please, please do not suggest that all our boilers should have an independant (by which I think you mean professional) inspection. It took many hours of negotiation by the M.E. federations to convince the H.S.E that we have a robust inspection facility within our clubs and boilers are tested according to the appropriate federations minimum requirements before a test certificate is issued. These certificates are not open ended but require re-testing at laid down periods. If a re-test is missed it invalidates the certificate and that boiler/locomotive/traction engine cannot be used.

The boiler must be inspected by the Club boiler inspector during construction.

It is on completion hydraulicly tested to twice designed working pressure, it then undergoes a steam test to ensure safety valves etc work properly, then and only then is the certificate issued.

The steam test is repeated anually and the hydraulic test every four years.

This is acceptable to both H.S.E. and Insurance Co’s. But it appears not to you!

You are not a boiler inspector are you?
29 April 2011 at 17:42 #67695
Colin Jacobs 1
Participant
@colinjacobs1
What a load of boolocks. This country and the H&S mn have ruined many a hooby with very little evidence of accidents but lots of IF’s

I am in the stationary engine movement and we are always sent to the bottom of the field.

Its not us it s the kids with their parents who think its ok to put their foots through the rope and hold their shoes against the flywheel.
29 April 2011 at 17:48 #67696
c
Participant
@c
c, you have too much time on your hands!

John, I am sorry, I thought you wanted to know. It did not take long to find using the Model Engineer index.
29 April 2011 at 18:05 #67699
IanT
Participant
@iant
Yes Dusty – exactly so.

If you read what I’ve actually said, I think you will see that I’m simply suggesting that a Boating ‘Club’ would have an acceptable test regime for live steam boilers. By independant, I simply meant not the boiler’s builder or owner – so yes – a club boiler inspector. Our Society has boiler testers and operates guidelines for the safe use of live steam boilers. We are also insured. This all makes perfect sense to me and I really don’t see what the fuss is about. I don’t think you will find any MES that doesn’t operate a form of regular boiler testing and that is not insured against public liability.

And Steve. If you came to me (the council official concerned with health and safety) and assured me that a) no high pressure boilers would ever be used, that b) all the people ‘steaming’ on the boating lake were completely competent, c) operated safe and tested equipment and d) that because there had never been any incidents in the past that you (personally) were willing to completely indemnify the council against any future claims for injury or damages in this daft world we live in – then perhaps I’d be completely relaxed about allowing anyone to steam whatever they wanted to in a public place under council management.

Or on the other hand, I might just want anyone who used the lake (for live steaming purposes) to be a member of the local model boat Club and to be able to meet whatever requirements the Club laid down for its membership in respect of live steam boilers – if only in order to meet the requirements of the Club’s insurance company.

Regards,

Ian T
30 April 2011 at 01:47 #67722
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
We had a fatality from a central heating plant in this country (NZ) last winter, which is more than we have had from any live steam boiler in any size in over fifty years. We have also had explosions in hot water cylinders, most of which have about 16 gauge copper walls and are never tested or inspected once they go into service.

The effort should be put into the areas where the risk is. The risk with a boiler is proportional to the energy stored. The energy stored goes down linearly with the volume of water contained. It also goes down with the pressure, I think also aproximately linearly. So by the time you get to the sort of boiler that goes into a model boat there is very little risk.

With model locomotives, which generally have larger boilers operating at higher pressures, the risk would be higher….but has there ever been a fatality or serious injury from such a boiler? I know that there have been injuries from actual (miniature) train operation, but curiously enough we tend to see far less angst about the danger from that than we do about the danger from boilers.

Similarly with model boats, I suspect there is actually far more risk to bystanders from a high powered planing hydrofoil than there is from a steam launch. I’ve seen such a boat, radio controlled, climb a fair way up the bank when the driver got confused about port and starboard. I wouldn’t have wanted to be in the way.

regards

John
30 April 2011 at 07:55 #67725
Steve Withnell
Participant
@stevewithnell34426
Ian T I think you miss my point.

a) What is the track record of accidents with little pot boilers on boating lakes? If none, then a ban is simply ludicrous.

b) Do not start banning stuff outright when clearly (as you must know as a loco builder) competent model engineers have established a formal structure for controlling the build and safe operation of the complex high pressure boilers anyway and it’s a matter of using those structures. (This thing kicked off on the topic little pot boilers not the major model engineering piece)

I had breakfast in a hotel on Thursday – next to the toaster was a sign “Warning the toaster is hot – do not insert fingers” and “the knife is sharp”.
30 April 2011 at 09:48 #67733
IanT
Participant
@iant
No Steve, I think you missed my point.

The days when a member of the public did something stupid (like touching something hot) got hurt, apologised, walked away and was never seen again are – sadly – long gone.

These days you just might get a legal letter six weeks later for damages. So some form of management regime and insurance are important.

In my first post I was assuming that the council had banned live steam boats if they were not under the ‘management’ (rules) of the local boating club. This made pefect sense to me – as I wouldn’t expect anyone to turn up with an steam loco at an MES and just expect to steam.

There was also a lot of emotive mis-information posted here. A boiler under two litres may not need CE marking when new – but it certainly does need regular testing. Much play has been made of “Mamod” boilers – but they still need to be operated safely – and not all boilers in model boats are that small – and if someone with no expereince buys an old steamer on eBay and just wants to just turn up and steam it – would you be happy?

So this was all I was commenting on. However, I have now looked at the New Wirral website and (as Keith stated after my first post) it does seem to be the club itself that has requested this ban. I don’t understand why they would want to do this – and if I was a live steam boat modeller – I would not be happy either. But I don’t know the reasons behind this decision – so I’m going to leave it there.

Regards,

Ian T
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