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This topic has 32 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 13 May 2014 at 19:09 by Neil Wyatt.

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12 May 2014 at 15:27 #152224
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
In another thread on drill grinding jigs one Gray's posts began….

'There are believe it or not some peoples work I have seen at the exhibitions that put my work to shame, that however does not make me give up, only try harder to achieve a higher standard. It also does not give me the right to ridicule or poke fun in others work.

I'm not sure if I'm the only one that has taken the remarks out of context but to me it reads as if the writer regards his own workmanship as better than almost everyone else's.

Gray, your workmanship is truly excellent, and normally your writings are to the same standard so I have to think that the misunderstanding is on my part?

Ian P

(who sometimes misses the obvious, and othertimes sees things that are not there). I did SEE Grahams levitating plate though!
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12 May 2014 at 15:27 #39676
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
Threat closed by moderator
12 May 2014 at 15:57 #152227
IanT
Participant
@iant
Well I'm afraid it doesn't read like that to me Ian.

Regards,

IanT
12 May 2014 at 16:18 #152231
Involute Curve
Participant
@involutecurve
For me the quality of work should suit the job in hand, if I'm making a jig plate to hold something for a one off job, I turn it mill it MIG tig gas it or what ever in order to get the job done, I don't bother polishing or painting it, what's the point in that, on the other hand I've thrown parts in the bin that others have said are fine, but I just wasn't happy with them as part of the model, so for me its down to what its ultimately for, other peoples work I never criticise unless I know them well or am invited to do so, my mates workmanship I slag off as a matter of course, its your duty

Shaun
12 May 2014 at 17:03 #152237
NJH
Participant
@njh
Gray

| "I had started to write the article up for Neil, but given the aforementioned comments this will no longer happen,"

That is very sad and you deprive us all of the benefit of your very worthwhile efforts and experience in this – I do wish that you would reconsider.

I should point out that, in one respect, you are quite wrong – I can assure you that your work is quite different from mine. Would that my own feeble efforts were 1/10th as good!

Best wishes

Norman
12 May 2014 at 17:52 #152242
Gray62
Participant
@gray62
Gray,

It is a sad day that you decide not to contribute further to this forum, I have very much appreciated your contributions to this hobby, your insight and engineering expertise are an inspiration to us.o

As others have said, I do hope you re-consider your decision as you will have support from many I am sure however, if you do decide to end your contributions, let me wish you well and enjoy life to the full

Kind regards

Graeme
12 May 2014 at 18:19 #152245
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
I don't wish to get involved in the "politics" of this … and nor should I, because I suspect that there is "history" of which I am unaware.

.

Suffice it to say that, over the years, the writings in ME which gave me most enjoyment' and taught me most, were those by Geo. H. Thomas.

Personally; I don't want to read about other people's quick'n'dirty lash-ups, I want to see something aspirational … a "stretch-target" that is some way beyond my current abilities.

MichaelG.
12 May 2014 at 18:23 #152246
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
Re ME show. We have had talks at our club from judges about what they expect and how they judge. There have been articles in ME too I think. I found these very discouraging.

It seemed to be considered for a Gold nowadays you not only had to build an impeccable model you had to use works drawings to make your own design and make your own castings and document everything in the build to profesional standards too. That last is ironically way beyond most professional engineers I know let alone hobbyists.

The good thing about the ME way of using medals rather than 1st, second, third etc is that wuality can be recognised per se, not merely in relation to the other things that happen to be around that year.
12 May 2014 at 18:27 #152247
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
I just assume the poster has been drinking heavily when they say something negative

Edited By Ady1 on 12/05/2014 18:28:31
12 May 2014 at 19:26 #152264
JA
Participant
@ja
I just don't understand what is happening here.

Gray – Many thanks for your article on making sparking plugs published some four years ago. I made full use of it and successfully made plugs after some dismal failures. I was looking forward to an article describing a good drill sharpening jig.

JA
12 May 2014 at 22:34 #152306
IanT
Participant
@iant
I'm with JA here – I don't understand what is going on here either (but I have been off-line for a few days)

So I may have missed something but I was following Graham's line of thought on drill sharpening and found it most interesting and informative. I would have found any "published" summary of this work most useful, so I'm very sorry if something (someone?) has upset him in some way.

Regards,

IanT
12 May 2014 at 22:42 #152307
Halton Tank
Participant
@haltontank
I suspect like many I have looked at competition models and said "I couldn't do that". I believe the Gold Medal standard nowadays is so high that it might be putting people off of participating in the hobby. Because of this I think the club stands are probably more important in shows by displaying models made by lesser mortals.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not denigrating club members abilities, but by and large they are singing to a different song sheet, in that they build a model to suit themselves rather than to win a competition, but these models are probably more of an inspiration for someone to start the hobby.

I do remember that many years ago, my club Model Engineer show displayed a model on the stand made by person who's mechanical engineering abilities were a lot to be desired, but he was pleased with what he done. The model did raise a lot of comments we pointed to people that the hobby is open to people of all abilities and we are not always seeking perfection.

Regards Luigi
12 May 2014 at 23:51 #152317
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
like graham i have avidly read everything that george thomas has ever written and perhaps a bit more as i have a collection of old SMEE journals, and his dissertation on why clocks go 'tick tock' instead of 'tock tick' is one of the most brilliant pieces of writing i have ever come across.

i dont know why quite why john stevenson decided to have ago at graham at every stage of the drilling jig saga, as i usually enjoy john's acerbic and pertinent comments.

i have never made anything that george thomas described as beyond my own capabilities. however if i had a lathe with all of graham's modifications i would be very happy but would have to stop building miniature locos for quite a few years to achieve same.

i also avidly read everything martin cleeve wrote. again none of it within my own capabilities but fascinating stuff to dream about!

(whatever happened to martin's lathe? is anyone on here lucky enough to own it?)

like john i have an odd talent to grind and hone drills freehand much to the consternation of my fellow club members and have often had to use an angle grinder at the club to sharpen drills for major construction jobs. i can do it from 1" dia drills down to 1/16" dia. however like graham i have been singularly unimpressed by the results of commercial drill grinding jigs. in my case ive avoided their use by grinding them by hand.

i can do lining out on locos and lettering by hand, so must have a good eye and touch, and this has been applied to drills and end mills etc. when my eyesight deteriorates i will need graham's designs!

i have also attended exhibitions and rather than be enthused have been depressed at the superlative standard of the exhibits and come away feeling no way can i achieve anything like this. and i knew the late Bill Carter and Jim Ewins!

on the other hand i have a capacity to make working miniature steam loco injectors and fine scale fittings, so perhaps one ought to set ones own level at what they feel comfortably with that gives the required degree of individual sense of achievement to continue at this daft hobby!

cheers,

julian
13 May 2014 at 10:15 #152346
Ketan Swali
Participant
@ketanswali79440
Posted by Graham Meek on 12/05/2014 16:18:51:

What you really need to know is the underlying agenda, not all the facts are before you, nor will they be from this source.

Lastly the above contribution on the twist drill jig will be the last from me, I had started to write the article up for Neil, but given the aforementioned comments this will no longer happen, perhaps JS can do a better job.

Gray,

Edited By Graham Meek on 12/05/2014 16:20:24

Why all this negative thought Graham. On several posts, you have wetted the readers appetite, only to pull out at some stage.

Have you been presented with the standard contract by MTM yet?…Do you accept it?…If so, then just proceed and write.

There are always going to be people challenging ones views, be it JS's technical based views in your case or commercial views in mine.

One should try and avoid using such points as reasons to stop ones own progress.

I am equally guilty of using negative points to justify my own actions, which at times achieves very little.

Ketan at ARC.
13 May 2014 at 11:25 #152355
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
If you work a lot in the public domain and you're any good at what you do then I'm afraid that you're going to attract all sorts of strange folk Graham

Sightings of UFOs have dropped to zero since the start of the internet because all the loonies are now online
13 May 2014 at 11:34 #152356
MICHAEL WILLIAMS
Participant
@michaelwilliams41215
Ketan – you just lost a customer .
13 May 2014 at 12:18 #152361
Gray62
Participant
@gray62
[Comment redacted on request]

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/05/2014 18:59:38
13 May 2014 at 12:49 #152365
WALLACE
Participant
@wallace
C’mon boys, can’t we all be friends ?

There’s too many unfinished projects in the shed and life’s too short to waste time being mean to people on a website. ….

Wallace.
13 May 2014 at 12:51 #152366
Ketan Swali
Participant
@ketanswali79440
Ah well Graham,

I speak for myself. JS speaks for himself.

You do as you wish, and I will keep out of your way. Everyone is happy

Ketan at ARC.
13 May 2014 at 14:14 #152373
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Good heavens this has really been blown out of all proportion.

Firstly I asked "How do you measure 10 minutes on a bench grinder ?

Perfectly valid question for anyone who has to work to fine limits.

The question was not a slur on Graham as they were not his words anyway but taken from an article he was using.

Did I get an answer ? No it then kicked off into everyone saying I was rubbishing Grahams work but I didn't read that. I posted about generalities that I felt were my opinions, personal and not as a moderator.

As regards language not one word is not listed in any dictionary and I'll bet your grandson knows even better words than me. Rough as a bagers arse is not new it's been around for years. Did you know you can even buy toilet roll called Badgers arse ?

Photographs of work ?

Jesus H Christ on a Bridgeport I'm sick to the high teeth over this one. Please excuse the Bridgeport profanity.

Why does photos of work count that much,? if it does then perhaps those with only scanned images of text books ought to get a life ?

I have two photos to my name on this site, ironically scanned images out of text books but this was because at some point I had web problems and hosted these on this site.

Normally I host them on our own dedicated web servers, the same ones that run homeworkshop.org.uk in case anyone thinks I don't help and assist people.

I had just had a look and quick count which is hard to do as the server page I see doesn't tally the totals but there are somewhere between 1,100 and 1,200 photographs, short movie clips and pdf files.

Most of these have all been put there to assist someone with a problem be it CAD, CAM or just general engineering. All these photographs are easily seen by anyone, no passwords etc

Link to pictures http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/index.php

So if we can put aside the witch hunt for a moment can anyone answer why is crucial to have this jig accurate to 10 minutes. ?

Edit : Spellings corrected and link added

Edited By John Stevenson on 13/05/2014 14:26:24
13 May 2014 at 14:26 #152375
Mike Poole
Participant
@mikepoole82104
I am sitting about 30m from the where the conveyor for RR bodies ran that were made in Cowley. Even these high volume bodies (8 a day) had a huge amount of lead applied to get the door fitting correct and to make the body look as if it was made of one piece. High volume cars are more accurately made because the investment in press tools and jigs is much greater and tolerances for automated assembly must be tighter.

The steel for the conveyor trucks to run on is still visible in the floor of the building where MINI's are made today.

Mike
13 May 2014 at 14:28 #152377
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Maybe it would help if we adopted tribal avatars…team edward or whatever….
13 May 2014 at 14:30 #152378
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Posted by Graham Meek on 13/05/2014 14:17:48:

Bogstandard will explain the 10 minutes,

Yours the Former Member.

Posted by Graham Meek on 13/05/2014 13:26:45:

Sorry to be so blunt and no I am not talking my ball home, as I cannot stand the game. I played the gentleman's game.

Gray,

.

Damn slippery ball
13 May 2014 at 14:44 #152380
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
How about we delete this entire thread? It serves no useful purpose

Or start a scrapbox forum where the useless threads can be chucked?

Edited By Ady1 on 13/05/2014 14:49:27
13 May 2014 at 15:02 #152382
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
This is all very depressing. All of us divided by a common interest.

This is supposed to be a hobby that all can enjoy. I hoped a new thread could start a positive debate on how and what encourages new folk to join us.

I doubt this thread will encourage anyone to join the hobby.

I am not going to pull or lock a thread because the poster doesn't like the opinions or attitude of another poster, be they moderator or no. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they were rude or ill-judged.

I also try to be a friend to all, and seek to make enemies of no-one. This means I will probably get along with people on this forum who some of you dislike. I'm sure no-one here has a 'you can't be my friend if you're his friend' attitude.

It beggars my belief that those who cannot tolerate some fellow forum members don't simply make use of the 'ignore member' button. That is what it is there for.

Over this time I have become aware of the ailments, bereavements and other misfortunes of a surprising number of contributors and forum members. My hope is that being active in the workshop or participating in this forum can be a way for them to forget their troubles, if only for a while.

I will reiterate the forum code of conduct:
- Swearing It can be offensive and it can also mean that some members can't use the site from work. If you really must use swear words please use asterisks.
- Being abusive or making personal attacks If you wouldn't say something to someone's face then it doesn't belong on the forum.
- Impersonating other members
- Hijacking and wilfully destroying threads The forum's a big place and thread titles and descriptions are there to help you filter what you're interested in, so please let more serious threads run broadly on topic.
This is not a detailed or onerous set of rules, and I do not intend that they should be applied with a rod of iron.

Members may not be aware that there is a three-step process for disciplining members. It does not involve locking threads.

I am sorely tempted to lock this thread, as I don't feel it has anywhere to go, other than deeper into the mire.

Please prove me wrong.

Neil
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