Posting Removal & Do you value your right to speak out ?

Advert

New Replies

Report Bug

Help/FAQs

Posting Removal & Do you value your right to speak out ?

This topic has 29 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 10 September 2013 at 15:18 by Peter G. Shaw.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 30 total)

1 2 →

Author

Posts
8 September 2013 at 09:13 #39281
Anna Jablonska
Participant
@annajablonska79888
Advert

8 September 2013 at 09:13 #128893
Anna Jablonska
Participant
@annajablonska79888
Hello to everyone.,

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed that a thread on the subject of Myford / RDG / E-bay has been removed from this forum ?

Do you believe that is the right approach ?

I sincerely believe in the freedom of speech (as long as it is honest and non-defamatory) and forums such as this one allow people to voice their opinions and be heard, by both other forum members and perhaps by the companies that provide resources etc. for them.

It is inherently un-ethical and very manipulative to remove postings at the request of an individual or company because "I don't like what people are saying about me or my products" on the contrary – a forum gives everyone the chance to read and to decide for themselves…

Many professional companies, who care about their consumers read forums, and take note of both the good and the not so good points that are raised by the forums, as it gives them a real insight into how they perhaps should / could improve their products / services etc. and the way they deal with consumers.

On the other hand, the ones that can't or won't deal with real issues get such postings removed most probably under duress of "we won't advertise with you if you allow this kind of thing to go on…."

This kind of baltant manipulation makes one wonder who and what else is being manipulated and why …?

Kindest Anna
8 September 2013 at 09:27 #128894
mike mcdermid
Participant
@mikemcdermid41977
I noticed it last nigth when i found this on ebay

**LINK**

and was wondering if RDG/Myford would be throwing their toys out the pram

Myford advertise on this site so i suppose being as they spend more money on ME than you do it makes sense (awaits denial of moderators) to keep them sweet, This happened a lot with motorcycle publications where a bad review meant spitting the dummy out with the publisher

TBH Anna there are plenty of other lathe manufacturers out there who ake products cheaper and as noted by the users on here who like their cheaper machines ,folks will vote with their pounds and pence not what gets deleted at the request of a company who are using the edinburgh defence or backpedal when they get a bit of backlash regards their actions.

Its the internet, sadly this is what happens and moderators of websites can come under fire from companies who would like to threaten action, because of opinions voiced by others on their site, its a rock and a hard place for them, its not just this website tthis kind of thing happens on ,a lot of others are far worse
8 September 2013 at 09:53 #128895
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Mike,

In the case of the link above RDG/Myford would be in their rights to have it removed as it is not described correctly.

The company has use the Myford name directly when they have no right to do so and it is not a genine Myford item.

Now if they were to describe it as "Lathe Cabinet SUITABLE for Myford" then there is nothing in UK law that RDG/Myford or Ebay can do anything about it.

This has been the crux of the whole episode going back nearly 2 years. RDG/Myford have been removing items off Ebay that have been correctly described as either suitable for or genuine items from the Nottingham factory, pre the sale to RDG be they new or used.

Which reminds me I have to get some photos of a set of brand new GENUINE Myford VM-B lead screws and nuts sorted to go on Ebay, Probably the last new set in the world.

John S.
8 September 2013 at 09:55 #128896
Robbo
Participant
@robbo
Yes, noticed that. A post I made on that thread was also "disappeared" as they say in Brazil. The proprieters won't risk any action, and don't forget that what we write belongs to them.

Draw your own conclusions and vote with your feet (or Credit Card).

Phil
8 September 2013 at 10:08 #128897
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
Britain may have been a free country within my lifetime but it definitely isn't any more

Nowadays people go to jail for what they say or write, like in the Soviet Union days

Companies and people get sued for personal opinions and any site has to decide whether it can be bothered with all the hassle

Quite rightly, 99% can't be bothered

edit

If you do feel very strongly about something then you can always start up your own sucks.com website

This tells the world what you think, gives you 100% editorial control… and 100% personal liability

Edited By Ady1 on 08/09/2013 10:22:21
8 September 2013 at 10:52 #128900
mike mcdermid
Participant
@mikemcdermid41977
Posted by John Stevenson on 08/09/2013 09:53:35:

Mike,

In the case of the link above RDG/Myford would be in their rights to have it removed as it is not described correctly.

The company has use the Myford name directly when they have no right to do so and it is not a genine Myford item.

Now if they were to describe it as "Lathe Cabinet SUITABLE for Myford" then there is nothing in UK law that RDG/Myford or Ebay can do anything about it.

This has been the crux of the whole episode going back nearly 2 years. RDG/Myford have been removing items off Ebay that have been correctly described as either suitable for or genuine items from the Nottingham factory, pre the sale to RDG be they new or used.

Which reminds me I have to get some photos of a set of brand new GENUINE Myford VM-B lead screws and nuts sorted to go on Ebay, Probably the last new set in the world.

John S.

I agree i think they are pushing the boat a little far with their ad
8 September 2013 at 11:14 #128902
Tony Pratt 1
Participant
@tonypratt1
I hadn't noticed the Ebay posts had gone I just thought it had run it's course. Ebay is full of parts described in part with a well known brand name to draw the punters in and is most annoying. In this case though it actually looks like the stand is for a Myford but not made by Myford.

Tony
8 September 2013 at 11:50 #128907
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
The body of the linked-to eBay ad in the OP does say it is "suitable for Myford and other lathes" so I don't think they are trying to pass it off as genuine Nottingham product.

It is perfectly legal to use the brand name to describe parts, new and used, in that manner ie, fits brand x, suitable for brand x etc. Happens all the time with car and motorcycle aftermarket parts.

But yes the ad's headline "Cabinet, Myford lathe" is a little close to the wind. But basically can be read as "Cabinet for Myford lathe", which would be perfectly legal.

But legal is one thing and companies threatening to pull much needed advertising revenue is another, especially in struggling small specialist publications with a competitor or two only too happy to take the business. RDG would have paid a lot for the Myford name so one can't blame them for doing what they can to protect it.

And as far as freedom of speech in forums goes, it's like going to someone's house: You are free to say whatever you want. They are free to kick you out if they don't like your presence or what you say.

Freedom of speech never has been formally enshrined in British law. And its defamation laws are the most draconian in the world outside Russia, China, North Korea etc. So don't feel singled out.
8 September 2013 at 12:25 #128915
NJH
Participant
@njh
If " fits or is suitable for Myford xxx lathe" or "unused xxx part for Myford" are acceptable as has been suggested then that seems OK to me. It is surely in all ( the many) Myford owners interests however that RDG are able to continue trading and supplying spare parts for these machines. To do so means that they have to make a profit and protecting their position must surely be part of that ?

Free speech? – well you can say what you like in the pub, to your mates, and in private. On this forum though the audience is somewhat wider and I think it understandable the site owners tend to err on the side of safety.

Norman
8 September 2013 at 13:17 #128919
mike mcdermid
Participant
@mikemcdermid41977
Posted by Hopper on 08/09/2013 11:50:43:

The body of the linked-to eBay ad in the OP does say it is "suitable for Myford and other lathes" so I don't think they are trying to pass it off as genuine Nottingham product.

It is perfectly legal to use the brand name to describe parts, new and used, in that manner ie, fits brand x, suitable for brand x etc. Happens all the time with car and motorcycle aftermarket parts.

But yes the ad's headline "Cabinet, Myford lathe" is a little close to the wind. But basically can be read as "Cabinet for Myford lathe", which would be perfectly legal.

But legal is one thing and companies threatening to pull much needed advertising revenue is another, especially in struggling small specialist publications with a competitor or two only too happy to take the business. RDG would have paid a lot for the Myford name so one can't blame them for doing what they can to protect it.

And as far as freedom of speech in forums goes, it's like going to someone's house: You are free to say whatever you want. They are free to kick you out if they don't like your presence or what you say.

Freedom of speech never has been formally enshrined in British law. And its defamation laws are the most draconian in the world outside Russia, China, North Korea etc. So don't feel singled out.

It was the made using original patterns that got my attention, i first thought these guys must have made these for the original Beeston Myford, then it dawned the original paterns belong to RDG now

To be honest its getting to be like America a patent or trademark weather its morally right or wrong or which side of the trademark /patent your on ,it means nothing unless your the guy with the biggest lawyer ,think its called legal engineering ,

Edited By mike mcdermid on 08/09/2013 13:20:25
8 September 2013 at 13:34 #128922
Tony Pratt 1
Participant
@tonypratt1
Posted by Hopper on 08/09/2013 11:50:43:

It is perfectly legal to use the brand name to describe parts, new and used, in that manner ie, fits brand x, suitable for brand x etc. Happens all the time with car and motorcycle aftermarket parts.

I agree what Hopper says but in the case of "Myford" this brand name is tagged onto listing titles in which the part has no relevance at all to "Myford", it is used to get people to view items that they have no interest in. It is called keyword spamming and is against Ebays rules.

Tony
8 September 2013 at 13:46 #128923
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Its unfortunate that RDG use the same Keyword spamming on so many of their sales, maybe top rated sellers are allowed to get away with it. Just try searching "colchester lathe" and see how many RDG items come up that have nothing to do with Colchesters.

It looks like RDG saw an advert for "genuine myford" parts from Poland, put 2 + 2 together and came up with 5. Had they done what they said in item 6 of their previous statement and followed the forums and other sites where ME supplies and models are sold they would know that Anna has a good reputation and is in no way selling rip off myford parts.

I'm sure this repeated episode will see people voting with their feet, even if you were not going to buy anything from them they would loose far more business due to people not suggesting them as a supplier when the regular question of what vice, rotary table, etc to purchase comes up.

Jason (my personal view not that of a Mod)

Edited By JasonB on 08/09/2013 13:49:10
8 September 2013 at 14:46 #128926
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Anna,

I am not really surprised that the thread was removed … Several of the postings were abusive and/or erroneous.

This forum is not a channel for free speech; it is here to serve the commercial interests of MyTimeMedia Ltd., by providing a "captive audience" for advertising. We get the benefit of a "club" but, this comes at the reasonable cost of playing by MTM's rules.

MichaelG.
8 September 2013 at 15:20 #128931
Springbok
Participant
@springbok
MG
I accept your comments and fully agree with you, and Anna. If an item comes on the market, and it is what you want, and the price you wish to pay then purchase it and s*d them. It is a cruel big commercial world out there. I do not think that lot have learnt that yet., or are they going to go down the path of Mr Red Braces.

Bob
8 September 2013 at 17:57 #128941
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
If you need a reason look to the columb on your right
8 September 2013 at 18:10 #128942
_Paul_
Participant
@_paul_
I hadn't noticed it had been removed, it would be very interesting to hear from the admin the reason the post was removed…

P
8 September 2013 at 19:14 #128949
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
I too would like to know the real reason for the topic removal.

If it was removed because an advertiser threatened to stop advertising then the magazine/forum management should not give in to them, just let them stop! There is bound to be another company that want to advertise, possibly a competing company, so I reckon they would soon come back.

Threads on this forum can get a little heated but surely the views expressed are those of the posters not the magazine (doesn't the forum have a get out clause anyway). What the advertisers should bear in mind is that however heated and acrimonious a thread might get, its only a storm in a teacup and soon gets forgotten. I doubt a suppliers reputation for being heavy handed would be forgotten as quickly.

Ian P
8 September 2013 at 19:22 #128950
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
What ever we may have thought.
The removal of the thread only fans the flames ( possibly with no reason).
8 September 2013 at 19:41 #128952
Steve Withnell
Participant
@stevewithnell34426
Hmm. This is not a public forum so the owners, ie the people that fund the operation of this website kind of have the right to determine what goes on here and what does not. We have of course a right to complain about that.

Best to move to a more public forum such as HMEM which is not operated by a private company to publish posts more freely, where the standard is "legal and ethical" rather than a forum like this which sets not only "legal and ethical" guidelines but also retains the right to censor what it doesn't like or is not in its interest to do so.

If I lend you my car – I have the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with it.

This forum is not "ours" in any sense at all. If it was, it wouldn;t have flashing adverts for a start!

On the topic of the RDG piece, I don't buy from them after the last time this kicked off. Arc supply pretty much everything I need. Thats something within my control.

Steve
8 September 2013 at 20:16 #128959
blowlamp
Participant
@blowlamp
How long would this website last if nobody posted here?

We ARE the forum and give our knowledge and opinions for free so that the owners of the site can cash-in on that resource. As contributors here, we should never forget just how important we are and who's doing who the favour.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 08/09/2013 20:17:51
9 September 2013 at 11:56 #129031
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
RDG would have no problems if they were able to command the market with their sales and service. Ian S C
9 September 2013 at 19:56 #129079
AndyB
Participant
@andyb47186
Good evening all,

This discussion has also been taking place on the Yahoo Myford forum. I answered there and a gentleman asked me to copy that post here as it explained it all very clearly to him. Rather than rewrite it all I have just copied and pasted; please bear in mind that it is an answer to the Yahoo forum, but the point is still made, particularly in the comparison between this forum and that:

I am not connected to Model Engineer in any way but I can appreciate the problem.

While this forum is private and only expresses the opinions of individuals, the ME forum is a corporate entity and is liable to various sanctions, notwithstanding their business relationship with RDG/Myford.

As the forum is owned by MyTimeMedia Ltd, the views expressed on the forum by individuals become the official opinions of MyTimeMedia. If the RDG/Myford companies were to fail in any way (in the extreme case, become bankrupt) the shareholders can sue MyTimeMedia for loss of revenue due to the views expressed on their forum, and this would not be cheap. This would, most likely, lead to the demise of MyTimeMedia.

As British law works by precedence, a barrister of any worth would cite the media views expressed about Northern Rock, for example, and would win their case. It is called a self fulfilling prophecy. MyTimeMedia have no choice but to remove the thread.

It is not that MTM are censoring the views expressed by individuals, they are protecting their business.
To be fair, the thread ran for long enough for individuals to read about what is going on and to partake of their own opinions. But all forums run the same risk, even this one. The forum owner could become liable which is why forums (fora) have moderators; as Yahoo is the ultimate owner of this forum it is unlikely that RDG/Myford could afford to contest the matter, and I would think that their legal department drew up the contracts very carefully. But all angles have to be considered.

I would say bravo to David and Diane for letting the threads run for so long.

Freedom of speech is still available, it has not been removed; it is just that many people do not choose their arenas very well.

Andy

Edited By AndyB on 09/09/2013 19:58:05
9 September 2013 at 20:19 #129085
mike mcdermid
Participant
@mikemcdermid41977
Posted by blowlamp on 08/09/2013 20:16:33:

How long would this website last if nobody posted here?

We ARE the forum and give our knowledge and opinions for free so that the owners of the site can cash-in on that resource. As contributors here, we should never forget just how important we are and who's doing who the favour.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 08/09/2013 20:17:51

Unfortunately this is not the case a very valid assumption is that there will be someone to take your or my place shortly ,

On the other hand i have also seen disgruntled members start their own succesful web endevours only to find that when they are in the hotseat it becomes apparent the moderation they once suffered (if that is the correct term) they now have to enforce

Edited By mike mcdermid on 09/09/2013 20:24:37
9 September 2013 at 20:28 #129086
John Haine
Participant
@johnhaine32865
You should look at the views expressed by Apple customers about Apple support and posted, and left, on Apple forums. RDG and MyTime Media just look weak, the first for getting so iffy about people using a word that has been common currency in model engineering for 60 or 70 years and the other for giving in to them.
Author

Posts