Bengs models ‘Sophie’

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Bengs models ‘Sophie’

This topic has 26 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 26 February 2020 at 14:08 by Garry Andrews.

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13 September 2018 at 12:33 #38817
Cornish Jack
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@cornishjack
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13 September 2018 at 12:33 #371510
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
I have a lifelong inability to translate tech drawings/plans to the solid … not ideal for model engineering!!

Presently dawdling through the Bengs beam engine Sophie and, having completed the beam support pillar, the base plate is next. It appears to be secured to the pillar from underneath by a 4mm countersunk screw and the plate secured to the wooden plinth by 4 countersunk screws. These latter appear on the plan to be upside down!! i.e. the countersink is between the plate and the wood, rather than on the top surface. How likely is a commercial company to make that sort of error? I am intending to go with commonsense rather than drawings unless somebody can advise otherwise!

rgds

Bill
13 September 2018 at 13:08 #371517
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Post a photo of that bit of the plans.
13 September 2018 at 13:12 #371518
Brian H
Participant
@brianh50089
Bill, is it possible to include the small portion of the drawing containing this detail in a post? I wondered if the upside down screws were to hide the countersink and allow washers and nuts to be the visible means of holding things down but I may have got it wrong!

Brian
13 September 2018 at 13:23 #371519
David Jupp
Participant
@davidjupp51506
There are photos on the Bengs web site of finished engine which might clarify.

Edited By David Jupp on 13/09/2018 13:23:52
13 September 2018 at 17:31 #371541
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Apologies Jason et al – should have engaged brain re. pics. See below

As you will note, the 'instructions' have lost a little in translation … almost a touch of the 'Stanley Unwins'!

The part 42 drawing shows the 4 corner holes as having the countersink facing upwards but I assume they are to enable the pillar to be fastened to the support block (??) so should face downwards – yes??

rgds

Bill
13 September 2018 at 18:42 #371551
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The 4 corner holes are shown correctly with the CSH in the top face which has the decorative chamfer all round and the central one should be the other way round so the larger screw comes up from below. The side elevation below the plan view is showing the part upside down.

I think I would be tempted to use studs and nuts for the corner fixings rather than CSK screws.
13 September 2018 at 18:45 #371552
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
I think its (a) drawn upside down and (b) the centre hole should be countersunk from the other side.

Looking at the GA the plate should be mounted chamfer up, and screwed to the base with the four screws (just visible in the GA top view) so the centre hole attaches the plate to the column.

Neil
13 September 2018 at 19:52 #371558
Mick B1
Participant
@mickb1
I can't imagine that a full-size beam engine's centre column baseplate would be held down with huge slotted countersunk screws. So I'd be with Jason for studs and nuts on that.

The drawing has the usual bizarre orientation of a first-angle projection, with the additional error that the centre screw countersink is indeed on the wrong side. So I'd be with Neil on that.

Interesting and revealing that Jerry can mess up just as much as anybody else. The translation is so bad that it suggests the original German wasn't especially lucid.
13 September 2018 at 23:07 #371605
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Jason, Neil, Mick, thank you. That all makes sense and I'll go with the hold-down studs as well. Given the quality of the 'plans' and instructions, I may well return for further (much needed) assistance!

rgds

Bill
14 September 2018 at 03:22 #371616
Paul Lousick
Participant
@paullousick59116
"How likely is a commercial company to make that sort of error? "

Answer: Very often with drawings for model engines because they are drawn by apprentices or draftmen with little experience to cut down on cost. Construction details are also simplified to make it easier to build. A set of drawings for a model engines are inexpensive, a couple of hundred dollars/pounds at most. If they were commercially drawn professional drawings they would cost thousands. You get what you pay for and all model drawings should be checked prior to manufacture. Most contain mistakes.

Paul.
14 September 2018 at 08:51 #371637
Mick B1
Participant
@mickb1
Posted by Paul Lousick on 14/09/2018 03:22:00:

"How likely is a commercial company to make that sort of error? "

Answer: Very often with drawings for model engines because they are drawn by apprentices or draftmen with little experience to cut down on cost. Construction details are also simplified to make it easier to build. A set of drawings for a model engines are inexpensive, a couple of hundred dollars/pounds at most. If they were commercially drawn professional drawings they would cost thousands. You get what you pay for and all model drawings should be checked prior to manufacture. Most contain mistakes.

Paul.

Yes. Every engineering drawing office I worked in and around had a full-time specialist checker whose job was to trap rookie errors of the sort Jack's found.

Nevertheless stuff gets through – I can remember a cross hole (drawn as blind and needing to be so) dimensioned as being counterbored and tapped 1 1/2" deep in a barstock component of 1 1/2" diameter.

I can also remember drawing up a milling fixture myself which got past the checker, but which the toolmaker came in to the DO to point out was impossible to assemble! Fortunately he was a decent bloke and pretty capable – he already had a proposed solution.
14 September 2018 at 09:15 #371644
Howi
Participant
@howi
Sophie is quite a nice model to make, just a little on the small side, lots of fiddly bits. never spotted the mistake you have highlighted, but common sense can come in handy sometimes. The cylinder assembly is perhaps the most difficult part, but is essential to get right for the engine to run.

I have only run mine on air and it will run quite slowly as a beem engie should.

It currently has pride of place on my sideboard.

A note for possible purchasers, this model kit only has German instructions (unless something has changed!)

My German to English translation wasn't too good either but managed toi get the job done as the drawings are perfectly adequate.

enjoy the build, let us know when you have it running.

there are photos in my album

Edited By Howi on 14/09/2018 09:16:40
14 September 2018 at 11:06 #371670
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
"Very often with drawings for model engines because they are drawn by apprentices or draftmen with little experience"

It's a CAD drawing so doesn't mean it had a "Draughtsman" driving it. The wonders of compukers and drawing packages.

Regards Ian.
14 September 2018 at 11:55 #371676
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you, Howi, that looks absolutely super! If mine turns out half as well, I shall be happy. Given your caveat on the cylinder, any tips?

rgds

Bill
14 September 2018 at 14:23 #371699
Howi
Participant
@howi
Posted by Cornish Jack on 14/09/2018 11:55:56:

Thank you, Howi, that looks absolutely super! If mine turns out half as well, I shall be happy. Given your caveat on the cylinder, any tips?

rgds

Bill

the cylinder needs a part between the cylinder and valve box to be soldered to the cylinder. this need to be square to the cylinder mounting holes otherwise the alignment for the valve operating bits will be out of kilter and will bind. (guess how I know?)

i used a seperate piece of wood to mount everything on to get it running before transfering these holes to the piece of wood in the kit, surprisingly enough the hole layout for the wood mounting block turned out to be accurate. I thought I might need to make allowances for my bad engineering skills!!!!

another thing I did was to replace some of the 2mm brass nuts with acorn nuts, especially on the beam components as they look better, not easy to find, but they are out there.
2 October 2018 at 11:40 #374201
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Howi et al – plodding on with Sophie and need to attach the parts 43 (2off) to part 38, which has preformed 3mm rebates for the purpose. I am assuming that the options are soldering or super glue. My soldering talent is pretty awful, so I'm inclined to loctite or similar. The 43s provide support for part of the beam motion. Would Loctite be suitable? If soldering has to be the method, would paillons of cored electrical solder be suitable or what is recommended? Material for both is brass.

rgds

Bill
2 October 2018 at 11:49 #374202
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I think soft electrical solder would do on a small engine like this.If you have separate flux apply some first.

I would be tempted to make use of the M4 clearance hole for a screw with large washer/plate and a nut to clamp the two arms onto the column top and also put a spacer (24mm? ) at the far end of the arms to keep things parallel and slip a 2mm drill through the holes too.
2 October 2018 at 13:43 #374216
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you Jason. The clamp and spacer idea is splendid .. and just what differentiates 'proper' engineers from the likes of yours truly – so obvious when pointed out but needs a 'tuned' thinking process!

rgds

Bill
4 October 2018 at 11:35 #374464
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Another cry for help, please!

The beam on Sophie is annotated with measurements I don't understandviz. "3H7 and 4H7". Could someone point out what is , probably, obvious?

rgds

Bill
4 October 2018 at 11:47 #374465
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The Germans like to put tollerances on their drawings. The H7 part is the tollerance the holes should be made to which for our purposes means that these holes should be reamed rather than other holes that just show the diameter which can simply be drilled.

So 3H7 means a hole reamed to 3mm nominal with a H7 reamer and 4H7 means a hole reamed with a H7 reamer.

On small holes like this drill say 0.2mm under nominal and then ream.
4 October 2018 at 12:20 #374471
Cornish Jack
Participant
@cornishjack
Thank you, Jason – something else to tuck into memory!

rgds

Bill
25 February 2020 at 10:11 #454186
Garry Andrews
Participant
@garryandrews80295
First post (hope I am doing this correctly!

I am building the Bengs Sophie and struggling with the lack of information regarding the cylinder assembly..

i cant work out how part no. 11 (which is not named) , part no. 12 which is the slide Valve and part no. 13 which is also not named all fit together..

I assume that part 11 is soldered to the cylinder sleeve and part 13 is screwed to part 12 the slide valve, but i cant see how the slide valve is fixed to part 11?

What confuses me is that part 11 is also drilled and tapped like the slide valve to fit part 13 and i cant see why

Any advice would be GRATEFULLY received

Regards Garry
26 February 2020 at 07:31 #454347
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Garry, this is not a very common model in the UK where most of our members are from so it would help if you could post a photo of the part of the drawing that shows these items and then we may be able to help.

Details of how to post photos here
26 February 2020 at 11:17 #454378
Garry Andrews
Participant
@garryandrews80295
Thanks for the response Jason, its nice to know that there is a community out there that may be able to help.

I have posted four photos showing the information that i have, as you can see there is not much. I am a retired qualified engineer and like to think i know my way around drawings and instructions but there is not enough for me to work this out. This is the first model steam engine that i have tried to build and it was supposed to be the easy one as i have an Allchin Royal Chester Traction Engine that i bought (part built) waiting in the wings. Getting very nervous about this one now.

Regards Garry
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