Inroducing lathes article in 303

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Inroducing lathes article in 303

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  • #541788
    Dr. MC Black
    Participant
      @dr-mcblack73214

      I have defective colour vision – I am an extremely protanomalous trichromat.

      I can NOT distinguish between the different coloured lines on the graph on page 60 of Issue 303. Only the lowest speed line appears different to the rest.

      It would have been much better for ALL readers with defective colour vision (around 3% of the population) if different sorts of dotted and dashed lines had be used rather than different colour. Or the different lines could have been labelled in the margin rather than using a legend.

      At first sight it seems that the writer of the article (who is not named) is discriminating against disabled (ie colour "blind&quot readers.

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      #38611
      Dr. MC Black
      Participant
        @dr-mcblack73214

        Cutting Speeds Graphs

        #541792
        Michael Gilligan
        Participant
          @michaelgilligan61133

          A very interesting observation, MC

          For the general reader: here is a very brief, but effective description **LINK**

          https://www.testingcolorvision.com/tcv-anomalous-trichromacy.php

          I well-remember a colleague who had difficulty with a ‘project management’ chart, on which we used two colours of adhesive tape … ‘Kawasaki Green’ and ‘Orange’ … He simply could not distinguish between them.

          MichaelG.

          #541798
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            Not the best colour combinations even for those that don't have problems but I'm sure it was not intentional.

            speed colours.jpg

            #541801
            Nicholas Farr
            Participant
              @nicholasfarr14254

              Hi, I don't have any colour problems, but I also found the graph difficult, although I got it correct according to JasonB's example. It is the top, the second and the fourth lines down that are hard to tell which is which, with the second and fourth being the most confusing, but I concluded which ones were which by the speed range and the materials, which of course can be difficult to those who don't have a clue. It may have been better to have put A B C D and E adjacent to the ends of each line on the right hand side.

              Regards Nick.

              #541802
              DC31k
              Participant
                @dc31k

                Your point is valid, but with a little thinking, it is not a great challenge to work out which line relates to which material.

                Given the following list of materials, in what order of cutting speed would you rank them?

                Tough steels, hard cast iron

                Silver steel, stainless steel

                Mild steel, cast iron, bronze, gunmetal

                Free cutting steel, brass

                Aluminium and its alloys

                Plastic and wood

                #541803
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  As Nick says a complete beginner would have difficulty arranging those materials DC31K. Just look at the Proxxon saw thread no idea of what speeds are needed or why and did not know how to work out rpm given the cutting speed of the material.

                  #541805
                  Frances IoM
                  Participant
                    @francesiom58905

                    isn’t the article taken from our editor Neil’s book ?
                    Must agree with MC too many authors/editors choose colour schemes font sizes totally inappropriate for those aged over 25

                    #541808
                    not done it yet
                    Participant
                      @notdoneityet

                      I have sympathy with ‘colour-challenged’ individuals. I am red-green deficient.

                      Anything I call faintly pink is bright and obvious to most (I describe many apparently pink items as plain white) – I have clothes with thin stripes of colours that I have no idea of their presence, which makes dressing in matched colours a joke (my wife is very colour conscious).

                      Just one more reason for leaving a job was that adjacent spectral colours were used to indicate process-control parameters, as they deviated from target. That meant I could not recognise that the process was in need of adjustment until the lights started flashing! Far too late for easily maintaining a steady state. That happened to be just one fault, of many, with that particular installation.

                      I was the ‘dummy’ for demonstrating the colour blindness check-pictures for one lecturer at college – at least it gave the students a good laugh (and possibly uncovered one or two students who were similarly afflicted, but didn’t like to be seen as disagreeing with the majority).

                      One job I had required results to be written down as a record (yes, back over half a century ago!). When the fellow, whose regular job it was, went on holiday I covered for him. The number of times I used a red or black pen instead of the correct one was overly common – until I labelled the pens appropriately.

                      It was a good thing that I never wanted to become a train driver!

                      #541809
                      Jon Lawes
                      Participant
                        @jonlawes51698

                        Excuse my ignorance, are there any colour combinations that work for all colour deficiencies? By making a chart better for one group do we alienate another?

                        Question asked purely as I don't know the answer, not intentionally rude!

                        #541812
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133
                          Posted by Jon Lawes on 27/04/2021 09:17:03:

                          Excuse my ignorance, are there any colour combinations that work for all colour deficiencies? By making a chart better for one group do we alienate another?

                          Question asked purely as I don't know the answer, not intentionally rude!

                          .

                          Your point is well made, John … and I suppuse the short answer is NO

                          The site that I linked last night has some excellent illustrations.

                          The classic way to avoid this problem is to use shape as distinguishing feature.

                          e.g. Lines can carry markers [squares, triangles, etc.] to distinguish them … either instead-of, or in addition-to, the colours.

                          The use of colour alone is, I suggest, a triumph of style over function.

                          MichaelG.

                          .

                          Edit: __ This is the best example I can find of a toolset:

                          https://www.wavemetrics.com/products/igorpro/creatinggraphs/2dgraphs/linegraphs/graphmodes

                          Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/04/2021 09:47:25

                          #541817
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb

                            Maybe Neil copied it from one that had been printed out on a printer where the magenta cartridge had run outcheeky

                            #541819
                            Dr. MC Black
                            Participant
                              @dr-mcblack73214
                              Posted by MC Black on 27/04/2021 00:40:25:

                              At first sight it seems that the writer of the article (who is not named) is discriminating against disabled (ie colour "blind" readers.

                              The closing bracket after colour "blind" was turned into an icon automatically by the software. I apologise for NOT spotting that.

                              It seems a completely pointless function to me.

                              There's legislation about discrimination against disabilities but defective colour vision is NOT classed as a disability by our legislature.

                              In many cases colours for all sorts of things are chosen by designers (who – by virtue of their profession – are VERY unlikely to have defective colour vision) and no thought at all is given to how things will appear to everybody.

                              Very many thanks to everybody who pointed out that they sympathise with the problem.

                              #541820
                              Andy Carruthers
                              Participant
                                @andycarruthers33275

                                I don't see the need for colour except for aesthetics on this chart, the curves do not intersect so grey scale with embedded labels will be fine

                                #541846
                                SillyOldDuffer
                                Moderator
                                  @sillyoldduffer
                                  Posted by Frances IoM on 27/04/2021 08:02:02:
                                  isn't the article taken from our editor Neil's book ?
                                  Must agree with MC too many authors/editors choose colour schemes font sizes totally inappropriate for those aged over 25

                                  Though when I was 25, Jason's version would have been printed in Fifty Shades of Grey, even worse!

                                  cuttingspeed.jpg

                                  devil

                                  Seriously though,my experience managing websites suggests it's impossible to select colours suitable for all possible vision issues. There are many special needs, and adapting to one is likely to make the others worse. Catering for average sight and avoiding colour blind combinations annoys the fewest.

                                  Many practical difficulties too. How does a person with perfect colour response conceive what the world looks like to those with various degrees of colour blindness? Not even sufferers are always aware they have a problem: a teenage friend only discovered he was mildly colour blind when the class looked at a selection of test cards during a biology lesson. He'd passed the medical!

                                  Another difficulty is imagining how colour will be rendered on different media – paper and computer screens are completely different. Only certain colours are 'web safe', and they don't necessarily work well on paper.. I often use QCAD to draw examples on the forum: on screen QCAD draws on a black background, but printing inverts to a white background. Certain combinations like Yellow on Black are wonderful on a light emitting screen, but poor printed on paper and useless when converted to yellow on white on screen. As is printing yellow on yellow paper.

                                  Avoiding colour clash problems is partly skill and knowing about eye conditions, partly aesthetic because people with normal colour sense find certain combinations obnoxious, and partly technical involving expensive colour calibration techniques and expert review. Graphs are extra difficult because the palette of clearly separated line colours is small – subtle shades of colour don't work. Marking points with different symbols like circles, crosses, triangles etc might help, but their numbers are also limited. Worst of all they tend to clutter the graph making it harder to understand, which triggers even more complaints.

                                  Engineering is all about compromise and nothing is ever perfect…

                                  sad

                                  Dave

                                  #541853
                                  Frances IoM
                                  Participant
                                    @francesiom58905

                                    there are several books that cover how to display data – eg the cutting speed chart is simplified if the medium is printed adjacent to the rightend termination of the curve – no colour is required and the result is simple + obvious

                                    Edited By Frances IoM on 27/04/2021 13:56:13

                                    #541868
                                    Michael Gilligan
                                    Participant
                                      @michaelgilligan61133

                                      Frances,

                                      That does seem an excellent solution, for a simple graph where the traces don’t cross yes

                                      MichaelG.

                                      #541895
                                      Howard Lewis
                                      Participant
                                        @howardlewis46836

                                        Printing off the graph in Black and White instead of colour would need suitable arrows to show ho each curve relates to the material to which it refers.

                                        Using different types of lines, (Solid, dotted, various types of broken ) would help, no doubt.

                                        EXCEL provides for different types of line, and point marker, in addition to a variety of colours.

                                        Howard

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