Opinions on four jaw chuck alternative by Harold Hall?

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Opinions on four jaw chuck alternative by Harold Hall?

Home Forums Model Engineers’ Workshop. Opinions on four jaw chuck alternative by Harold Hall?

  • This topic has 13 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 1 May 2012 at 13:41 by Harold Hall 1.
Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #38119
    PekkaNF
    Participant
      @pekkanf
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      #89755
      PekkaNF
      Participant
        @pekkanf

        Hello,

        I'm pondering should I make this alternative four jaw chuck type thing or buy a four jaw chuck. I have some 125 mm dia pretty good cast iron material, but lack T-slot cutters.

        An alternative to the four jaw chuck: http://homews.co.uk/page211a.html

        I don't have a backpalate or 4 jaw chuck, just 3 jaw chuck.

        1) Has anybody build it and has opinion about building and using it?

        2) Article is on his site and MWE 157/158. Are there any modifications, additions, erata on this article? I'm particulary interested on those jaws, they bear some similarity on

        Thank you,

        Pekka

        #89772
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb

          I can't see it being much use for smaller work as the 4 blocks won't go much closer than 40mm x40mm by the looks of it. It would be a useful tool for things that won't easily mount in a 4 jaw but I would say not a replacement for a 4 jaw.

          J

          #89779
          PekkaNF
          Participant
            @pekkanf

            Thank you gents.

            Keats has allways been on my list, but they have allways been missing when I have ordered stuff. When shipping costs 25 to 30 €/pop that is consideration. Repeatability is a plus, I didn't consider and it is not normally high on my list, but before long I'll find that I have on my list dozen nearly identical pieces to make!

            I'll be putting a faceplate on my next order.

            I have read Mr. Harold Hall article and he has designed an jaw pieces that will extend grip also to smaller parts.

            Pekka

            #89790
            ChrisH
            Participant
              @chrish

              David C – the adverts on the right are blocking this thread for me!

              ChrisH

              #89794
              Ady1
              Participant
                @ady1

                I have found a Keats angle plate a very good substitute for a four jaw, plus when it is set up, no matter how many of the same parts are being made, they are just dropped in and tightened up, whereas with a four jaw, you have to do a set up every time

                Never thought of that before, and a heck of a lot easier than collets as well

                #89797
                David Clark 13
                Participant
                  @davidclark13

                  The adverts were fine for me but I altered the long link which may have been causing the problem.

                  regards david

                  #89805
                  ChrisH
                  Participant
                    @chrish

                    Thanks David – it's fine for me now too!

                    Regards, Chris

                    #89985
                    Harold Hall 1
                    Participant
                      @haroldhall1

                      I have delayed replying to Pekka's questions as being the originator of the design I felt it better to first give others the chance to comment. However, I would like now to attempt an unbiased reply.

                      Whilst I may have inferred that it could be used in place of a four jaw chuck, which it can, I do believe that unless the user has a reasonably frequent need for its use outside what a similar sized chuck can perform then a standard chuck is to be preferred. This because, within these limits the chuck is likely to be a little easier to use in many cases. What then are its benefits?

                      This is mainly to work with much larger workpieces that can be done with a similar sized chuck. Typically, compared to my similar sized 150mm chuck, it can hold rounds and squares up to 83mm compared to 58mm for my chuck. This also with an available jaw depth 35mm compared to only 20 for my chuck.

                      In addition to rounds and squares, this capacity permits it to hold larger and more irregular shaped parts with ease.

                      With it being possible to add support pieces it can deal with thin parts much more easily, even on top of the jaws making 150mm diameter/square being perfectly possible.

                      The following three pictures show some example some of which have only been taken as mock ups rather than an actual processes. however, they should give some idea of its capability.

                      Pictures, one,

                      two,

                      three.

                      A fourth picture shows it being used as a two jaw chuck and using support pieces as mentioned above.

                      Without the jaws it makes an excellent faceplate, having the advantage that one only needs to use one spanner as one is not required on the rear, yes I do know tee nuts can be used on the rear of a faceplate but wonder how many do. This gives a free hand to support the workpiece.

                      Having a much greater mass, small errors in the balance of the workpiece and its clamps becomes less significant resulting in less frequent need to balance an assembly. This picture show a typical example of it being used as a faceplate.

                      In a nutshell then.

                      1. If a four jaw chuck already exists, the alternative is only worthwhile if its additional capacity will find sufficient use to make it worthwhile making.

                      2. If a chuck is not available but the need for one can be mostly met with a purchased item, then this is the way to go unless it is seen as an interesting project.

                      3. If a 150mm chuck is available but the additional capacity and adaptability will find a use, then making the device will be better than purchasing a 200mm chuck which still will not perform everything that that being discussed will.

                      For more details regarding the device see here.

                      You mention Pekka that you do not have a tee slot cutter. When the surface of cast iron has been machined removing any hardspots that there may be then machining it is very easy. This can easily be done using a shop made tee slot cutter, see here for suggestions.

                      Harold

                      Edited By Harold Hall 1 on 29/04/2012 21:57:51

                      #90007
                      Joseph Ramon
                      Participant
                        @josephramon28170

                        Hi Harold,

                        "Having a much greater mass, small errors in the balance of the workpiece and its clamps becomes less significant resulting in less frequent need to balance an assembly."

                        With respect, I imagine that the reduced speed you use when turning such a large mass makes the difference. An imbalance of 100 grammes will exert the same force, regardless of overall mass.

                        However, having such chunky holders will mean that relatively small movements can correct an imbalance, making adjustment easier.

                        Joey

                        #90012
                        Ady1
                        Participant
                          @ady1

                          For more details regarding the device see here.

                          I wasn't sure whether to mention it but there are no pictures on that page or any of the others

                          The plans downloaded fine tho

                          #90014
                          dcosta
                          Participant
                            @dcosta

                            Hello Ady!

                            I can see pictures in that page and in the following ()next) 6 pages.

                            Best regards

                            Dias Costa

                            #90058
                            PekkaNF
                            Participant
                              @pekkanf

                              WOW, really got a load of information. I don't know where start to thank you all.

                              I had read pretty much all there are on Harold Hall's site about the subject to find out prior asking all the guestions. The instructions are great on the sense that they tell not only how to make them (allows me to acertain difficulty and need for tools) but also how outcome could be used. Very often I'm after "spesification" so to speak. The site works out fine for me. Sometimes all pictures don't load or after longish browsing it freezes (to limit trafic?), but I come back after an hour or so and it works fine.

                              I started really thinking the way I attach odd pieces to lathe. Because I only have130mm three jaw chuck and the lathe spindle taper is MT4, register D100mm, PCD about 113mm or so, making it a bit harder to find hardware straight out of self. Also I tend to bolt the pieces that don't lend themselves to three jaw chuck to rotab for milling machine, because my milling machine is bigger and there are no need to balace the setup.

                              Anyhow I'm been failing on constructing some bearing fits (simple spindles) and I have concluded that these are best bored in the lathe as many books like WPS#27 et.all. suggests.

                              I'll address the most immediate problems with indipendent four jaw chuck and face plate, which both of them I have to modify, but this "alternative" will be on my watch list, right when I'll get right size chunk of cast iron. Now I have about 125mm chunk, apparently a little bigger would be even better. I need to make a mock up to see limits.

                              Thank you all,

                              Pekka

                              #90062
                              Harold Hall 1
                              Participant
                                @haroldhall1

                                Thanks Joey for your comments regarding my thoughts on balancing a faceplate. You mention an out of balance of 100g is the same whether on a light faceplate or a much heavier one, in both cases a counter balance having the same effect ( not necessarily the same weight depending on its position) will need adding to achieve a perfect balance. With this I agree.

                                As we are though not expecting a perfect balance, I reasoned that a smallish error would be less significant if mounted on a device having a much larger mass. I have to admit that I could not be adamant about this, it is over 60 years since I studied mechanics at collage.

                                On a different, but related subject, since I made my balancing fixture , which has considerably less friction than my lathe mandrel, I have been able to achieve a much improved balance and I am able to chose a speed to suit the machining being performed. This may be, say, boring a 6mm hole at 1000rpm being totally unrelated to the mass of the faceplate and workpiece.

                                Pekka asks regarding accuracy of the drawings and this has made me wonder if visitors to this forum may be interested in the way I work.

                                I first draw the complete item to scale and then cut and past small sections of it onto another page. From this I erase all the detail around a single part, being then left with just that part. Typically, It probably needs some dotted lines to be made solid but it is though exactly the same size as in the assembly. This avoids any errors that redrawing the part may produced. I then use the CAD's auto dimensioning facility, again avoiding errors which may exist if I added them myself.

                                With the drawings complete I then use prints of these to make the device marking these up with any changes that I feel are necessary taking these back to the PC for action. I cannot say that one of these changes never gets overlooked but the method makes errors relatively rare. If any one knows of any I am always willing to change the drawings on my web site.

                                Harold

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