This months MEW are 3 CNC features two too many

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This months MEW are 3 CNC features two too many

This topic has 199 replies, 62 voices, and was last updated 2 June 2011 at 08:39 by David Clark 13.

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13 May 2011 at 14:37 #68357
Stephen Benson
Participant
@stephenbenson75261
The balance seems to have tipped too far towards CNC in my opinion

Edited By Stephen Benson on 13/05/2011 14:41:35
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13 May 2011 at 14:37 #38045
Stephen Benson
Participant
@stephenbenson75261
13 May 2011 at 16:25 #68358
chris stephens
Participant
@chrisstephens63393
Hi Stephen,

You might be right there, where are the useful articles for us luddites?

chriStephens
13 May 2011 at 16:26 #68359
Oddlegs
Participant
@oddlegs
You’re quite right. CNC should have its own magazine.
13 May 2011 at 18:11 #68365
macmarch
Participant
@macmarch
Model Engineering Workshop Does this not mean equipment etc to produce Models and small scale? Seems as though we now have to become programmers to produce items we can make in half the time using our skills. CNC is alright if making dozens or hundreds. I make small parts in 20’s and 30’s just as quick or quicker manually than CNC. If the magazine continues in this vein then here’s one that will not be renewing.
13 May 2011 at 18:44 #68366
NJH
Participant
@njh
Hi Guys

To me the interest in the hobby is working things out, gaining skill in operating the machines and tools, and eventually producing something of my “own”. Once I’ve made this I don’t want to do it again! I’ve little or no interest in CNC and, whilst there might be some (very) slight interest in viewing the machine set-ups, blocks of gobbledy-gook programme code just bring back painful memories of hours wasted in front of ZX computers and the like. Now I can grit my teeth and overlook the odd article with the feeling that others may eagerly devour such stuff but three in one issue is too much. I recall this has happened before – if we must have them please let them be spaced out better.

Also in this issue is the “eagerly” awaited readership survey. I will certainly return mine and I suggest you do too. We can’t guarantee that our views will be followed but at least we can make them known.

Regards

Norman
13 May 2011 at 19:21 #68372
Martin W
Participant
@martinw
Hi All

I totally concur with the comments above re the number of CNC articles etc in the magazine generally. I like Norman want to learn and then use those skills to produce whatever I want. I don’t intend to spend a lot of money on a machine and have it do the fun part of producing a ‘wotsit or bobit’ for me. As far as I am concerned the fun has been removed and I might as well go to the local engineering company and say make me one of these ‘wotsits or bobits’.

Yes it is fun to watch a high speed machine shape a part and spit it out but only once, IMO these things belong on a production line not on a hobbyists bench.

Cheers

Martin

Call me a Luddite what the hell I too old to care.
13 May 2011 at 20:08 #68377
wolrikm
Participant
@wolrikm
I was about to subscribe to the magazine, and in fact I would have except I couldn’t find anywhere to let me state which issue to start from. I came to the forum to see if I could find out and spotted this thread. I am glad I did as I have no interest in CNC, or repairing cars come to that, as that’s what my job was for the last 25 years.

I’m new to model engineering and MEW, so I think I will stick to browsing it in W H Smiths and buying if there is something in it to interest me, something I should have done today before buying issue 177.

Martin.
13 May 2011 at 20:22 #68378
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
Here is another vote against CNC.

For what it is worth, Norman has fairly and squarely hit the nail right on the head. Like Norman, I have done my programming years ago: I know I can do it, but I do not want to do anymore.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
13 May 2011 at 20:32 #68381
John Coates
Participant
@johncoates48577
Hmmm interesting views guys. As a newbie I am only interested in manual machining as I am trying to learn the basics. Lathe and mill work is what I’m interested in learning and right now that is about finish, depth of cut, feed, type of tool, sequence of operations, for which you guys have been most helpful in answering my many questions over the past months.

I thought I could learn things from the CNC articles but I was wrong, There is nothing in there for me so the number of pages that are relevant are reduced. And once the survey was removed it’s a very thin issue this month.

I know David has a hard job to do to please such a vast readership and I wouldn’t want it and he probably has to use the articles he’s given. Luckily there are books to aid me and the Foundation Course book by Peter Wright I got for my subscription free gift is coming in very useful.

I agree with NJH and will be completing my survey form because if you don’t vote you abdicate all rights to moan about the buggers who get in!
13 May 2011 at 20:47 #68384
DerryUK
Participant
@derryuk
As the editor has said before he can only publish what he is given. So come on you moaners write something that you do so that the rest of us can enjoy also.

You never know you might find it more enjoyable than moaning.

Derry.

PS I generally don’t read the CNC articles either but I know that in the future I will get my hands on a CNC machine and when I do I know were to go (other than the manual) for something informative to read.
13 May 2011 at 20:53 #68386
Ian Hewson
Participant
@ianhewson99641
Hi, totaly agree, we have had far too many cnc articles of late, whilst I am interested in computers and am not a luddite, I will have to consider my subscription, and as was stated earlier may go back to checking WH smith before I buy.
13 May 2011 at 21:21 #68389
blowlamp
Participant
@blowlamp
Well here’s a vote for it.
I’m finding it strange that you can get fired up about these articles when they all relate to the activities of three Model Engineers in their Workshops, especially when that’s the magazine they appear in.

The notion that CNC can or should, only be used for mass production, just shows that you’ve given insufficient consideration to the other opportunities that it offers.
Is this http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1208.0 unworthy of thinking about? Or this? http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=478.0 Or this http://www.cambam.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1178.0

I use CNC for 1 offs all the time and find the CAD and CAM side of the job very rewarding as it just adds to the variety of things I get to do in this hobby of ours.

Martin.
13 May 2011 at 22:08 #68391
Flying Fifer
Participant
@flyingfifer
Hi Blowlamp,

Yes I agree that the 3 links you`ve put up show what can be done with CNC but I still agree with my fellow luddites. No disrespect intended but I suppose when its finished the builder can say (with justified pride) “I programmed that” as opposed to I built that.

Stands by for upcoming flak

Alan
13 May 2011 at 22:31 #68392
Steve Withnell
Participant
@stevewithnell34426
Here’s a question- can you be any good with a CNC machine until you have got a real good feel for cutting metal by hand? (ie manual lathe or mill). Alternatively, can you learn faster how to machine metal using CNC because it’s a lot easier to change feeds and speeds to get to the right finish?

My delight is hands on the wheels teasing out a part to a good finish, not sure if I’d get the same pleasure from CNC as a hobby perspective.
13 May 2011 at 22:32 #68393
Charlie,
Participant
@charlie18171
As one who likes a good winge i have had several disapointing weeks recently,The weather

has been nice, The pension has gone up,I won a prize on the Premium Bonds, And

imigration to this country has fallen below two thousand a week,So you see i have had a

a very lean time,But the latest issue of m,e,w has fixed that! I can live with an artical or

two that has no interest to me,Other people have many varied interests outside of what i

like and i must be mindfull of this fact,But to find the latest issue stuffed full of cnc stuff

was very disapointing,In fact i the Product catalogue that came with it was much more

interesting,And i have to consider the latest issue as a total dud,
13 May 2011 at 22:46 #68397
Alan Worland 1
Participant
@alanworland1
I agree – too much CNC! I can see some advantages for using it (profiling springs to mind) but I want to go out in the workshop and make something not spend the evening before progaramming what I am doing the following day.

Just my opinion!
13 May 2011 at 23:01 #68398
Martin W
Participant
@martinw
Hi Alan (Fifer variety)

I think that, for me certainly, you have hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head. Yes CNC will produce items and produce them very well and very accurately but what it denies me is the hands on approach and the great satisfaction of looking at something I have made with the knowledge that as my skills improve the results will get better.

They will never match the repeatability nor probably the accuracy of a CNC produced part but they will be uniquely mine, warts and all. That said I will never produce an engine as describe in Blowlamp’s posting but believe me I would love to, CNC or not, but what stumbles out of my workshop I have made or bodged and that for me is the pleasure.

CNC is here to stay and will probably become more popular as time passes but I feel that skills will be lost. I have spent my career in electronics, from entry level through to management, during which time I inevitably did some programming and to an extent that is what I am trying to get away from by learning another discipline post retirement; hence my reluctance in wanting to see magazines being taken over by the subject.

Yes I am a Luddite in this respect but having started out servicing military airborne electronics and early computers with fault finding to component level I have watched the industry change significantly. This has now, in industry and elsewhere, developed to board swapping controlled by diagnostic instruction with the loss of the many skills. It is of course cost effective as is CNC in the workshop but I want to learn/practice engineering and hopefully develop some skills before it goes the same way.

Rant ends for today .

Martin W

Edited By Martin W on 13/05/2011 23:15:48

Edited By Martin W on 13/05/2011 23:16:07
13 May 2011 at 23:12 #68399
Martin W
Participant
@martinw
Me Again

I must add that I feel for the editor as he has a difficult balancing act to perform. Too little CNC, modern stuff, and he’s not progressive enough too much and the old codgers, that’s me for certain, zimmer frame to the keyboard and complain that it wasn’t like this in my day!!

All the best

Martin W
13 May 2011 at 23:49 #68401
blowlamp
Participant
@blowlamp
Incoming flak!

I’m sure the first blokes that used a lathe of some sort got slated by their peers for missing out on the pleasure of bringing their work to the round by applying a hand-made abrasive device to its surface, whilst supporting it in the crook of a branch of an English Oak.

And what about the lazy git that first jumped on a horse to get somewhere instead of doing the decent thing of walking?

You see, I see CNC as just another tool in the arsenal. You don’t have to use it for everything, but if a part needs an elliptical profile on it and you’ve only got a lathe and vertical milling machine, then how are you going to do it without making yet another ‘never to be used again’ attachment device?

Here’s a part I made for someone that’s about 6″ in length . I think there’s one straight line on it and he wanted it to have nice blends, so not much handle turning but plenty of filing, if that’s what you like doing. Perhaps you could do it on a rotary table?

I take it none of you have moved on from your 78s to CD, or from your valve radios to the newfangled transitor?

Anyway, everything else has been covered before and doesn’t need repeating….I said it doesn’t need REPEATING.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 13/05/2011 23:52:02
14 May 2011 at 00:00 #68402
NJH
Participant
@njh
But Martin – surely repeating is just what CNC does so well?

Cheers

Norman
14 May 2011 at 00:26 #68403
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
So Steve gets in from the pub, reads the thread, roars with laughter and concludes that:

1) Martin (blowlamp) = truly Renaissance Man, I’d guess, who gets my vote for what he said, and

2) Everybody should read Plato’s Allegory of the Cave and correlate it with this thread. Then you might appreciate why I’m laughing!

I can’t read too many articles with CAD programming details in either, FWIW. But I understand why they’re there, I think. But I also think that as usual, the real answer is to exercise moderation in all things – including CAD articles with actual code in them…
14 May 2011 at 00:29 #68404
blowlamp
Participant
@blowlamp
Posted by NJH on 14/05/2011 00:00:22:

But Martin – surely repeating is just what CNC does so well?

Cheers

Norman

True, so you could actually make some extras to sell too, but just to repeat myself, it also turns those awkward 1 offs into triumphs of little bundles of pleasure.

Martin.
14 May 2011 at 07:52 #68410
IanH
Participant
@ianh
Iam going to vote for CNC here. I produce patterns for lost wax casting vintage car and engine parts – the patterns are always one offs – no repition work here. I moved into CNC milling simply to extend the range of geometries I could handle. Making a pattern for the expansion link illustrated earlier in this thread for example would be easily handled by my CNC mill.

What I don’t do is reproduce the original parts themselves with CNC – there are folk doing this and to my mind the finished articles, whilst serviceable, do not make adequate reproductions of original parts. They shout out “billet made CNC” some indeed even make a virtue of this.

My approach is to come via the casting route – it is more expensive overall but you get a more authentic product. I am off to the foundry this morning to pick up some prototype Rolls Royce Phantom III oil pump castings – whilst some aspects of this pattern could have been done by hand, there were a series of ribs that curved and sloped that would be beyond me without my CNC mill.

Also don’t underestimate the tooling challenges of using CNC machines – it stretches everything I have learned in many years of manual machining.

Ian
14 May 2011 at 09:12 #68412
blowlamp
Participant
@blowlamp
So if you haven’t stepped into the sunshine to read the Plato’s Allegory of the Cave link, I think Peter Kay can be usefully referenced as the next best thing.

When a man that is set in his ways, is presented with the potentially life-changing experience of trying Garlic Bread for the first time, he responds thus:-

Garlic Bread…? [pauses for though], Garlic Bread…? [pauses again for though], …Garlic and Bread?? [gives up and goes back to eating his Mothers Pride and Dripping sandwich]

That’s you, that is.

As for me, I never hand write Gcode and hate looking at it – so I never do, because that’s what the CAM program’s for. In fact I’d have to think hard about a specific Gcode command to even tell you what it does.

I totally agree with IanH about the challenges of CNC and how it stretches your learning.

Martin.
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