A strange fluid

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A strange fluid

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  • #38008
    Versaboss
    Participant
      @versaboss
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      #55752
      Versaboss
      Participant
        @versaboss

        Thumbing through the MEW 168, which arrived today, I was especially interested in the article about the EDM machine. Specially so, as my incarnation of the 1995 model by R. Langlois is still unfinished under the bench. But what took my attention was that the author in several places mentions that the machine needs a dialectic fluid. As I am always a bit unsure with such unusual words, I had a look in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. A nice definition, just I don’t know how to apply it to a EDM machine:

        “dialectic, also called dialectics, originally a form of logical argumentation but now a philosophical concept of evolution applied to diverse fields including thought, nature, and history.”

        Strange, isn’t it?

        I still hope, if and when my machine attains a working state, a simple dielectric liquid is all it needs.

        Chuckling, Hansrudolf

        #55753
        Terryd
        Participant
          @terryd72465
          It is good to see that you still have your ‘tongue firmly stuck in your cheek’ as we say in the UK, Hansrudolf.  I must admit to not seeing the error until you pointed it out, well spotted.
           
          Terry
          #55754
          Anonymous
            It’s clear; you need the dielectric liquid in the tank and the dialectic incantations outside the tank for the thing to work.
             
            Regards,
             
            Andrew
            #55755
            John Stevenson 1
            Participant
              @johnstevenson1
              Probably couldn’t spell parafin either
               
              John S.
              #55756
              Nicholas Farr
              Participant
                @nicholasfarr14254
                Hi, strange how you read the word thats supposed to be there, although it is spelt wrong. Couldn’t see it till I got to Andrew’s post.

                Regards Nick.
                #55767
                KWIL
                Participant
                  @kwil

                  Seeing the word that you expect is usually the case when you have written it, when written by others it  screams out at you. That is why we used to have Proof Readers, now we have Spellcheckers that do not work for some people.

                  Edited By KWIL on 17/09/2010 08:51:35

                  #55769
                  David Clark 13
                  Participant
                    @davidclark13
                    Hi There
                    I usually check such words if I am not sure of the meaning.
                    An Internet search found:
                    Riding upon the basic principle of dialectic fluid (That is fluid that is electrically neutral) that exhibits high heat-transfer and dissipation qualities,
                     
                    Good enough for me.
                     
                    So I left as is even though it could have been dielectric.
                    regards david
                    #55773
                    Terryd
                    Participant
                      @terryd72465
                      Hi David,
                       
                      There are often mistakes on the internet, it is not infallible.  There is no such word as dielectic in the Oxford Compact English Dictionary (all 20 volumes of it).  What you saw was probably a typo. For example the following question from a forum, note the later correct spelling in the actual question (my underlining):
                       
                      Dielectic union between brass and black pipe

                      How important is it?

                      I’m installing a new boiler with existing black pipe. I will have brass valves (3) and brass taco air separator. Are the dielectric unions necessary? Is this a BIG deal?”

                       
                      However, a Dialectic is:
                       
                      di·a·lec·tic (d-lktk)

                      n. 1. The art or practice of arriving at the truth by the exchange of logical arguments.

                      Is that not what we are practising now?  It is probably worth double checking with a good print dictionary
                       
                      Best regards
                       
                      Terry
                       
                      #55776
                      David Clark 13
                      Participant
                        @davidclark13
                        Hi There
                        I still think dialectic is correct.
                        Will ask author.
                        regards David
                         
                        #55781
                        John Haine
                        Participant
                          @johnhaine32865
                          Oh, come on!  The correct word is clearly “dielectric” as in “dielectric constant”.  A dielectric is basically an insulator – if the working fluid was not an insulator it would short out the spark.
                           
                          There is no such word as “dielectic” but there is a word “dialectic” as in “dialectical materialism” which was the yawningly boring topic that Marxists used to drone on about.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism.
                           
                          If you look up spark erosion on Wikipedia you get the following intro:
                           

                          Electric discharge machining (EDM), sometimes colloquially also referred to as spark machining, spark eroding, burning, die sinking or wire erosion,[1] is a manufacturing process whereby a desired shape is obtained using electrical discharges (sparks). Material is removed from the workpiece by a series of rapidly recurring current discharges between two electrodes, separated by a dielectric liquid and subject to an electric voltage. One of the electrodes is called the tool-electrode, or simply the ‘tool’ or ‘electrode’, while the other is called the workpiece-electrode, or ‘workpiece’.

                          When the distance between the two electrodes is reduced, the intensity of the electric field in the volume between the electrodes becomes greater than the strength of the dielectric (at least in some point(s)), which breaks, allowing current to flow between the two electrodes. This phenomenon is the same as the breakdown of a capacitor (condenser) (see also breakdown voltage). As a result, material is removed from both the electrodes. Once the current flow stops (or it is stopped – depending on the type of generator), new liquid dielectric is usually conveyed into the inter-electrode volume enabling the solid particles (debris) to be carried away and the insulating proprieties of the dielectric to be restored. Adding new liquid dielectric in the inter-electrode volume is commonly referred to as flushing. Also, after a current flow, a difference of potential between the two electrodes is restored to what it was before the breakdown, so that a new liquid dielectric breakdown can occur.

                          #55782
                          Axel Bentell
                          Participant
                            @axelbentell

                            Dielectric is the correct word http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric

                            #55790
                            wheeltapper
                            Participant
                              @wheeltapper
                              I agree Dielectric is the correct spelling but I wouldn’t trust wikipedia as far as I could throw it.
                              it’s too easy for people who don’t know what they are doing to edit it.
                               
                              Roy.
                              #55796
                              David Clark 13
                              Participant
                                @davidclark13
                                Hi There
                                I don’t trust Wikipedia.
                                The references I found were on a spark erosion website and a site about cooling a Cray super computer.
                                regards David
                                 
                                #55802
                                Jeff Dayman
                                Participant
                                  @jeffdayman43397
                                  I have been using EDM or programming it or specifying parts to be made with it for almost 30 years professionally. In my early work I went on training courses for EDM at Mitsubishi and Japax, both major makers of EDM machines. I also built my own EDM machine to the Ben Fleming design with many modifications.
                                   
                                  I have never seen the oils used in these machines labeled or called anything except dielectric oil or just dielectric, in the manuals or on the machine labels.  I hope this helps end the nonsense about other spellings in the context of EDM.  I have no knowledge of the correct use of the word “dialectic” or other applications using dielectric materials.
                                   
                                  Water is used as the dielectric in wire EDM machines, just for the curious. 
                                   
                                  The function of a dielectric substance in EDM is to insulate the electrode from the work until a critical energy is reached. At this point the dielectric breaks down and allows an arc to form between the electrode and the work. The energy of this arc erodes the surface of the work and leaves a crater. The process occurs many thousands of times a second. 
                                   
                                   
                                  #55804
                                  Steve Garnett
                                  Participant
                                    @stevegarnett62550
                                    Posted by David Clark 1 on 17/09/2010 11:16:43:
                                    I still think dialectic is correct.
                                    Will ask author.
                                     
                                     
                                    Hmm… I’m afraid that I agree with everybody else – it’s wrong (and I studied linguistics…). And since the author clearly made the original error, I hope that he has the good grace to acknowledge his slightly amusing slip – which I did spot in the article. I’m afraid to say though that it did nothing more than amuse me – we see so many of these mistakes these days, all over the place – quite often propagated from one original slip-up.
                                     
                                    But that said, I can see where anybody using ‘dialectic’ might be coming from in this instance. The Wiki definition is clearly correct, but if you look at the second principle, it says “Everything is made out of opposing forces/opposing sides (contradictions).” If we take the material to be worked on as opposing the force of the too, then the idea of a ‘dialectic’ between the two perhaps makes a little more sense?
                                     But strictly speaking, it’s not the correct word – which is dielectric.
                                     
                                    #55810
                                    Richard Marks
                                    Participant
                                      @richardmarks80868
                                      David
                                      It would be nice if one could read from the introductory post what this is all about, instead we have a series of adverts obscuring the text, why cant you put the adverts somewhere else  so that people can read them if they want to instead of having them plastered all over the pages.
                                      Dick
                                      #55816
                                      Nicholas Farr
                                      Participant
                                        @nicholasfarr14254
                                        Hi, In my Reader’s Digest Universal Dictionary page 434; di-elec-tric (di-i-lektrik) n. A nonconductor of electricity; especially, a subtance with electrical conductivityof less than a millionth (10-6) of a siemens. [DI(A)- (through)  + ELECTRIC.]
                                        –di-e-lec-tric adj. –die-lect-tri-cal-ly adv.

                                         
                                        page 430 di-a-lec-tic (di-e-lektik) n. 1 the art of arriving at the truth by exposing the contradictions in an opponent’s argument or beliefs and overcoming them; especially, the Socratic method of question and answer to elicit the truth. 2 blar, blar , blar…….. more about truths ect.
                                         
                                        PS. the pronunciations in the brackets are not exact as they have got some of those funny little marks and wrong way round letters.
                                         
                                        Hope this all makes sense.  Regards Nick.

                                        Edited By Nicholas Farr on 17/09/2010 21:37:43

                                        Edited By Nicholas Farr on 17/09/2010 21:39:18

                                        #55819
                                        Nicholas Farr
                                        Participant
                                          @nicholasfarr14254
                                          Hi again, one thing about word spell check is that it will tell you the correct spelling it won’t tell you if you have used the correct word. For an example: if you type dialectric it will give three alternatives: – dielectric,  dialectic,  dielectrics. I suppose its easy to select the wrong one when you are editing.

                                          Regards Nick.
                                          #55832
                                          David Clark 13
                                          Participant
                                            @davidclark13
                                            Hi There
                                            I do not rely on a spellchecker for words like that.
                                            I do search the internet.
                                            Usually Mike Haughton’s articles in MEW include a word that looks wrong.
                                            When I check it is always right, just a word I have never heard of.
                                            Then, I am not a chemist like Mike.
                                            regards david
                                             
                                            #55833
                                            David Clark 13
                                            Participant
                                              @davidclark13
                                              Hi There
                                              I don’t have adverts over the text.
                                              Might be your browser.
                                              regards David
                                               
                                              #55834
                                              David Clark 13
                                              Participant
                                                @davidclark13
                                                Hi There
                                                I don’t have adverts over the text.
                                                Might be your browser.
                                                regards David
                                                 
                                                #55837
                                                Nicholas Farr
                                                Participant
                                                  @nicholasfarr14254
                                                  Hi, sorry David, my point about spellchecker was not aimed at yourself or anyone inparticular. It was supposed to be general comment, as not everone realises some of the limatations of spell checking programs.

                                                  Regards Nick.
                                                  #55839
                                                  KWIL
                                                  Participant
                                                    @kwil

                                                    Nick, such a “limatation” obviously applies to you!

                                                    #55843
                                                    Richard Marks
                                                    Participant
                                                      @richardmarks80868
                                                      David
                                                      Re my last regarding adverts in the middle of the text, since your reply the width of the page has gone back to normal and the adverts are once again at the side of the page, as this is only on the first page of this post and not on any other forum posts how can it be my browser?
                                                      Dick
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