Is not a scan of your passport good enough for them/

Kiwi Bloke – they might be coming to get you, too! There was a report in the UK press recently that a number of UK banks are closing the accounts of ex-pats without a permanent residence in the UK. It may be that this is more relevant for those living in Europe due to the Brexit business which means the banks are no longer able to do business there and NZ operates under different rules.

It's anti-money laundering stuff and it's got quite strict for the little people here in the UK

I got a passport a couple of years ago because you basically need a national ID to do useful stuff, even though they still pretend that we don't have a national ID system in the UK

Checking your pension

bank account stuff

Black cab licence

etc

They even pulled me in for an interview and I had to take a day to go to Glasgow

Question1-"So why do you want a passport?"

Answer1-"I don't want a passport. YOU want a passport."

More to do with anti-Money Laundering than Brexit, though leaving the EU has made proving identity more difficult in Europe. Borders aren't always a good thing!

The relevant bit of the UK Money Laundering / Anti-terrorism legislation is:

28.—(1) This regulation applies when a relevant person is required by regulation 27 to apply customer due diligence measures.

(2) The relevant person must—

(a)identify the customer unless the identity of that customer is known to, and has been verified by, the relevant person;

(b)verify the customer’s identity unless the customer’s identity has already been verified by the relevant person; and

(c)assess, and where appropriate obtain information on, the purpose and intended nature of the business relationship or occasional transaction.

'Relevant Person' is a financial organisation of any kind – Banks, Trusts, Casinos etc.

Not a problem for most UK accounts held by UK residents, but tricky for anyone living abroad, and especially awkward for persons of ill-intent wanting to anonymously open an account for nefarious purposes. In that sense Kiwi Bloke is a victim of crime – cracking down on criminals requires everyone to prove who they are, whenever that isn't already clearly established.

No idea what the UK bank is asking for online, but there must be some way for legitimate foreigners to prove their identity. I'd ask my local bank for advice: it's possible their assurance of Kiwi's identity is good enough for the UK bank. (Unless of course New Zealand banks don't have an acceptable record of proving customer identity! In the not so distant past British banks were very remiss.) Or a solicitor could probably sort it out.

A friend living in Thailand had this problem a few years ago. He fixed it by presenting himself plus documents in the UK; he was lucky enough to do this on a scheduled visit to relatives before he became too ill for international travel. Also has trouble with pensions and tax, because they write to him and the Thai postal service fails to deliver about half of his mail! This leads to difficult phone calls. So far all been sorted out in the end, but it's always bothersome.

My sympathy entirely!

Dave

By the way have you looked at your passport where it says place of birth? I hadn't noticed before last week that it gives the city but not the country of my birth, which happens not to be in the UK though it is, I thought, the well known capital of a not too obscure country. On entering Italy the passport official had to ask me where it was, and on exiting my sister got asked where her town of birth was (slightly less well known as their civil war did not result in independence).

Since lots of place names get duplicated round the world for a variety of reasons a passport is not so definitive as one might think.

Having just read this again, some common misunderstandings have once again been trotted out. While it is true 'some' banks said they would close ex-pats accounts, I have been searching for an alternative place to get my pension paid in the UK (another bank) because of their lousy service – as far as I can find out, none of the many banks I contacted in the UK are doing this.

This also showed that it is virtually impossible to find a UK bank which does any business outside the UK – I have been trying on and off for about 40 years now – even during the great years of Brexit this did not happen.

Dave(S.O.D) While your information is relevant, when something like this happens to you, the last thing you either have the inclination to do, or the time, is to sort through obscure regulations so you understand them – its enough of a worry anyway. I would suggest that since this is down to the banks, they should do the work and provide the advice – if you want to believe it.

As for claiming a full-indexed pension whilst living abroad – my experience is that this is virtually impossible – there is so much paperwork from various places (Pension provider, bank, Her Majesties Robbers and Crooks), that you would be very lucky to get away with it for long – I have to provide a signed stamped affidavit from my local townhall every year, amongst other things.

Another thing I would like to make clear, although its not mentioned here – I get a pension from the UK because I paid for it (RAF and Civil Service, amongst others). I also pay tax on it – I was informed by HMRC that people in receipt of a UK pension should pay tax in the UK – I suspect this is incorrect, but I'm sick of arguing – I have have paid for my pension, and am entitled to it no matter where I live – and we get no allowances, nor do we get the services enjoyed by taxpayers in the UK.

From a UK perspective crimes emanating from certain countries are a serious problem, Eastern Europe ahem!

Don't blame British Banks, they have to obey laws passed by the British government. (Teresa May, but started by David Cameron.) Why should a UK resident risk being conned into having his money transferred to Ruritania just so a small number of ex-pats can operate UK bank accounts without having to prove who they really are? If ex-pats don't have to prove identity, guess who the local mafia will pretend to be! And why should UK citizens put up with terrorists transferring money into the UK so they can set up an outrage?

This stuff is being tightened up world wide. The UK was an early adopter, law passed in 2017, and it's gradually been enforced over the last 5 years. The EU is only a couple of years behind so expect to be asked similar questions in due course by German Banks. May be easier for Brits living in a EU member country, because the EU is rolling out an electronic identity system that's accepted by all the member states, though I'm not sure UK citizens can use it now the UK has bailed out after Brexit. The US legislated similarly this year so from now on anyone with US account might also be asked to prove who they are. (New accounts and old ones if identity hasn't been satisfactorily proven.)

Not explaining what's wrong with an application is a typical security measure. Good guys are likely to understand and do what's needed whilst bad guys struggle because they don't understand the context. So it's not clever to help bad guys through a security process by patiently explaining what it is they're getting wrong! Obviously, this is really annoying to legitimate applicants who can't see where they went wrong. I suspect that something was adrift in the evidence provided, and the call to customer relations resulted in the bank checking the history of the account manually, and telling the contractor it was OK. Or just another incompetent cock-up!

The way proof of identity is scored is 'quite interesting' and absolutely not simple! We live in a complicated world, seems easy until a system goes wrong, and then sorting out the mess can be a right pain in the rear end!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/09/2022 19:01:08

Look at my post 7th September title Officialdom – bah!

Original letter from the club's bank dated 5th July headed in large black letters, Please confirm where your organisation is resident for tax purposes. They weren't satisfied with my response and sent another letter on 22nd August, "You need to complete another Tax Residency form. They say that all financial institutions have to collect the info by law. Also, report to the taxman any non compliance and any incomplete information held by them will be passed around the world! And comply within 90 days or we'll tell taxman.

Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) and the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) tax regulations require us by law to collect information from customers for whom we are unable to confirm their tax residency or FATCA and CRS status.

The bank then enclosed a Tax Residency Self Certification Form for Entities. Then they say that they are not authorised or regulated to give advice on filling it in! Also asks for a TIN – Tax Identification Number. 6 Part form running to 13 pages.

1)Name and address of entity=club.

2)Entity Country of Tax Residency= UK

3)FATCA Classification.= No.

4)CRS Classification.= No.

5)Controlling persons=Club Chairman,Secretary and Treasurer.

6) Declaration= signed confirmation that the information is accurate.

One of the provisions is that "I am authorised to sign for the Entity and the Controlling Person in respect of all of the Financial Accounts to which the form relates. So as Treasurer, I cannot duck out!

Another provision, all statements made are to the best of my knowledge and belief are correct and accurate. A nice let out!

UK doesn't issue TIN s as HMRC already has a unique tax reference (UTR) for me and my NINO(National insurance number).

All this for a model makers club of around 55 members. We use a all portion of a local council park for the track and pay a 5 figure insurance premium! Council lease requires the grounds to be returned to original condition in the event of the club being wound up. Any excess of expenditure wouldn't cover the cost of that. One clause in the menu of answers to the questions is appropriate to our club- NPO = Non Profit Organisation.

Some of the wording makes it obvious that all this is of American origin and aimed at money laundering prevention. "If you are a US citizen………". "Postcode/Zipcode""County/State/Province"

Begs the question … which is worse, the cure or the disease?

Hi Kiwi Bloke,

Is it possible for you to satisfy these requirements by either going to the British High Commission in Wellington or a British Consulate, possibly in Auckland Christchurch or Dunedin? They also could possibly take a statutory declaration. I think it would be worth a call to the nearest consular office to check out the possibilities.

At least now you wont have to do it in Te Reo!

Regards from another Kiwi.

Nimble Neil.

The disease is serious! In the UK over half of all crime is fraud, and it is enabled by a negligent financial system. Root cause, banks didn't care where money comes from or where it is going! They profit by handling money, more the better.

Not checking identity properly means criminals in one part of the world can open an account in the country of the victim, collect money in it, and then transfer it abroad. Very difficult to recover the money. The system makes it hard to trace criminals because money can be transferred via several accounts in different jurisdictions, none of whom will talk to a foreign policeman without going through an expensive legal rigmarole.

Not having to confirm identity is exploited internationally on a large scale by tax evaders, drug dealers, terrorists, fraudsters, and a host of petty criminals.

The case for tightening up is rock solid, unless you're a criminal! It's not bureaucracy designed to annoy senior citizens, it's a crime-busting initiative! Unfortunately, proving identity can be quite difficult, and everyone hates work!

Although I sympathise, I think we have to ask DMB, Kiwi Bloke and AN Other to take one for the team. Not their fault, but for different reasons all three are operating suspicious bank accounts.

I agree with Chris Crew that a bank engaging third parties to do identity checks is wrong. The Bank is responsible, and using a third party is likely to cause mistakes – chopping off legitimate customers, and accepting wrong 'uns. It's an excellent way of shifting the blame though.

Dave