Anyone know about audio recording people?

Advert

Anyone know about audio recording people?

Home Forums The Tea Room Anyone know about audio recording people?

Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #610601
    Ian Parkin
    Participant
      @ianparkin39383

      I wanted to record a conversation with my mum who’s getting on a bit with various family members.

      to this end i thought lavalier type mics would work well

      so i bought a comica boomX-u system 2 transmitters and one receiver various wires etc including a xlr cable to connect to my camera

      trying it yesterday in the garden with 2 volunteers walking around whilst i was 30 foot away recording theres an echo /reverb on it..if i switched one channel off all ok but with both channels on it sounds rough.

      is it because both mics are picking up the conversation one with a fractional delay with speed of sound?

      if so is this not the way to record 2 people should i just use one mic?

      but comica sell 2 transmitters or 4 transmitter systems so how to avoid this problem?

      Advert
      #36952
      Ian Parkin
      Participant
        @ianparkin39383
        #610603
        Wout Moerman
        Participant
          @woutmoerman25063

          You diagnosis is correct, this is cross talk with a slight delay. Where were the microphones placed? If you use lavalier microphones on the clothes this should work OK. The distance between the subject and source of interference is then large enough. It is easy to look for an insult here, please don't. Alternative is using directional microp6pointed at the mouth of each person.

          Just checking, there was no loudspeaker amplifying the recorded sound at the same time?

          #610604
          Ian Parkin
          Participant
            @ianparkin39383

            The transmitters were clipped to pockets with the mics (lavs) clipped to lapels

            no amplification

            the 2 volunteers were generally 6 ft apart most of the time walking around the garden

            #610609
            SillyOldDuffer
            Moderator
              @sillyoldduffer

              As speed of sound is about 1100 fps, the echo due to the microphones picking up people about 6 feet apart would be under 6 milliseconds. I don't know if the human brain is fast enough to detect that; I'll experiment later.

              Is anything like the side of a house nearby? If so the distance travelled from speaker to mike is further and doubled causing a delay big enough to explain the problem. Not happy though because this explanation ignores the observation that the echo disappears when one mike is switched off.

              In which case, how is the signal from the microphones processed? I'm wondering if the echo/reverb is caused by the time taken for a small digital system to decode two channels, as when DAB time signal beeps were about a second late compared with analogue radio. (Now fixed by the BBC I think.)

              If the effect is due to digital processing delay a slow recorder isn't the best way to listen to the sound. Is the recording still distorted when played by a computer? With luck that might fix it.

              Otherwise is it possible for the recorder to capture the two mike channels separately and  transfer them to a computer? A media player like Audacity and others can delay one track relative to the other by the number of milliseconds needed to synchronise them. Never needed to use Audacity that way myself, but this website describes various methods of removing echo and reverb.

              I think professionals always use a back-end sound mixer to clean up Body Microphone recordings and would probably use a boom or directional microphone for this job. Only one microphone in the system makes it easier to control 'noises off' of all types.

              Why is nothing ever simple?

              Dave

               

              Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 21/08/2022 14:37:42

              #610612
              Ian Parkin
              Participant
                @ianparkin39383

                Doh

                i think i have cured it

                i had the receiver into one channel and had left the other channel recording via the cameras internal mic

                it was adjusting gain to get a signal even from 30 foot away

                switching off the unused channel sorted it..or combining both channels also did it

                #610615
                SillyOldDuffer
                Moderator
                  @sillyoldduffer
                  Posted by Ian Parkin on 21/08/2022 15:15:35:

                  Doh

                  i think i have cured it

                  Hurrah! Glad you fixed it.

                  I was about to report a 6mS delay on speech makes the speaker sound as if they're in a bathroom. A 30mS delay causes serious echo effects.

                  Messing with audio is good fun. Might have a new hobby!

                  Dave

                  #610621
                  Simon Williams 3
                  Participant
                    @simonwilliams3

                    Good to hear you've got it sussed.

                    At risk of being pedantic, what frequencies are the two transmitters set to?

                    Comica's website says they operate on frequencies in the range 568 – 591 MHz. (Ch 30 to 33). Assuming you are UK you're going to get into hot water transmitting on those frequencies in the UK as they are reserved. You can transmit on Ch 70 licence free or Ch38 with a licence. Which will cost £80 for a year.

                    Whereabouts are you? If you want to borrow some Ch38 stuff I've got it to hand, and even better my licence would cover you using my stuff. I'm in West Gloucestershire UK, nearly Welsh Wales so if I can offer any assistance you're welcome

                    Copy of UK channel number allocations here

                    #610630
                    Ian Parkin
                    Participant
                      @ianparkin39383

                      Simon

                      i just turn the pair on and it sets a channel via IR

                      the handbook as you say says

                      group A 568.125- 579.875 mhz

                      group B 580.125-591.875 mhz

                      transmitting power 15dbm

                      who is likely to feel my collar?

                      Bought the other day from amazon uk

                      should i send them back or is the risk small?

                      #610638
                      SillyOldDuffer
                      Moderator
                        @sillyoldduffer

                        Posted by Ian Parkin on 21/08/2022 17:32:45:

                        who is likely to feel my collar?

                        Ofcom. I think the worst they would do is confiscate the equipment in the event someone pointed the finger.

                        The microphones are in the band space of Group A TV channels. Group A is used in the Welsh Borders, Central Wales, Swansea, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Stoke-on-Trent Area, London, East Berkshire, Hertfordshire, South Buckinghamshire, South Hampshire, East Devon, West Dorset , North Lake District, South West Scotland , Prestwick Area, Western Isles, Stornoway, Lewis, Isle of Skye and Shetland Islands.

                        Outside those areas it's unlikely anyone will notice or care. Inside those areas you could zap neighbours watching E4+1, E4 Extra, 5STAR, 5ACTION, Great Movies, ITV+1, STV+1, UTV+1 or Pick. But probably not if they've got a decent antenna on the roof.

                        I wouldn't use it even though this bad boy is mostly harmless because I'm a Radio Amateur and the bands are full of muck spewed out by rogue devices. Ofcom are hopeless unless a priority service is interfered with. But expect serious bother if aeronautical, maritime, military or any of the emergency services are disrupted!

                        Dave

                        #610651
                        Simon Williams 3
                        Participant
                          @simonwilliams3

                          Posted by Ian Parkin on 21/08/2022 17:32:45:

                          who is likely to feel my collar?

                          .

                          I'm with Dave, Ofcom probably won't do anything about it, but they could (and should!) As he says, there's a whole load of spurious rubbish on the airwaves which shouldn't be so. On the face of it the Comica units may be using frequencies reserved for others, and it does depend on who those others are what reaction you may get. I wouldn't chance it, but that's largely because one of the fetes for which I provide sound and public address regularly is within spitting distance of GCHQ in Cheltenham, and I'd expect a visit if I was using an unlicensed frequency.

                          But we haven't got a definitive answer to the question of what frequency they actually are using. There should be a type approval label on each, and it should include details of the frequency (or frequency range) of operation. For radio transmitting devices they aren't legal if they are not marked. Now we know they came from Amazon I'd kind of hope that they were set up for approved use in the market in which they are being sold.

                          What channel numbers do the displays show when they are in operation?

                          #610676
                          John Doe 2
                          Participant
                            @johndoe2

                            Ofcom are becoming a lot more pro-active these days.

                            My other day-job involves using radio frequencies for television outside broadcasts, and this year I have twice met Ofcom with spectrum analysers patrolling sites and checking equipment. They are very nice folk – as long as you are licensed – and have been very helpful to me in finding interference from other users. I don't think Ofcom are hopeless, but they cannot monitor the whole UK all the time. A phone call might bring them looking.

                            The OP should apply for a licence, or return the equipment and demand a refund, since otherwise, the gear is seemingly illegal to be operated in the UK?

                            If you start interfering with my telly at home, (group A), I will have something to say about it !

                            #610711
                            Ian Parkin
                            Participant
                              @ianparkin39383

                              Simon

                              Channel 8 and 11f2ddef6e-6829-482d-bd42-8fad68312519.jpeg

                              Edited By Ian Parkin on 22/08/2022 14:03:27

                              #610712
                              Ian Parkin
                              Participant
                                @ianparkin39383

                                What you you all recommend then for legal equipment?

                                #610713
                                Ian Parkin
                                Participant
                                  @ianparkin39383

                                  What does all this mean?

                                  4eb640e2-1dee-4ee8-b0b5-7f6c8ae3a29f.jpeg

                                  #610721
                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                  Moderator
                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                    Posted by Ian Parkin on 22/08/2022 14:08:54:

                                    What does all this mean?

                                    4eb640e2-1dee-4ee8-b0b5-7f6c8ae3a29f.jpeg

                                    CE asserts the item meets European standards.

                                    FCC is the US Federal Communications Commission, and an FCC certificate means the item conforms to US emissions requirements. Industry Canada (IC) is like the FCC, and I think they issue certificates too.

                                    Shock horror, the device isn't marked with a UKCA mark! UKCA marks aren't quite as rare as hen's teeth because I've seen one! (Only one. Are Brexiteers happy with that? Two and a half years after finally leaving the EU, we're still using CE marks. Write to your MP!)

                                    Legal frequencies for radio microphones in the UK listed here. The channels used by Ian's microphones are listed in Orange, meaning they're available but are Short Term PMSE License Required – Date & Venue Specific. I guess Ofcom check the microphone frequencies don't interfere with TV in the area. So not illegal if you have a licence.

                                    Channel 70, 1.9GHz and 2.4GHz don't require a licence. 1.9GHz is shared with DECT phones and 2.4GHz with Bluetooth and Wifi.

                                    Dave

                                    #610731
                                    Ian Parkin
                                    Participant
                                      @ianparkin39383

                                      I’m still confused

                                      the list of channels that Simon linked to suggests that channels 8 and 11 use frequency’s well outside the stated frequency of my unit 568-579mhz and 580-591

                                      #610742
                                      Simon Williams 3
                                      Participant
                                        @simonwilliams3
                                        Posted by Ian Parkin on 22/08/2022 15:42:16:

                                        I’m still confused

                                        the list of channels that Simon linked to suggests that channels 8 and 11 use frequency’s well outside the stated frequency of my unit 568-579mhz and 580-591

                                        Think I'm confused too, if only because channels 8 and 11 aren't UHF, and that is part of the description. They're VHF. There is a licence free VHF frequency allocation (from memory it's 173.8 to 175 MHz which is within Ch7). I've got two separate stand alone lavalier systems on this frequency range you can have if that helps.

                                        I'm wondering if the manufacturer isn't using the standard channel designations, but is using sub-channels within the main frequency allocation. There should be a table of operating frequencies as part of the user manual.

                                        Failing that, I'm coming round to the "send it back to Amazon" school of thought.

                                        Edit:  I need to check if the receivers for the two VHF systems I know I have are suitable for camera mounting

                                        Edited By Simon Williams 3 on 22/08/2022 17:33:09

                                        #610753
                                        SillyOldDuffer
                                        Moderator
                                          @sillyoldduffer

                                          Don't get hung up about Channels! The blurb says this device works in the frequency range 568.125MHz – 579.875MHz which straddles three TV Channels in Group A as shown in Simon's list.

                                          TV Channels are very wide and the Comica fits 48 audio channels into the space occupied by TV Channels 30, 31 and a bit of 32. Comica Channel numbers are different to UK TV Channel numbers, so ignore them: their purpose is to allow several Comica transmitter to be operated at a venue without interfering with each other.

                                          Anyone in the UK is allowed to buy a Comica but it can't be operated legally without a Short Term PMSE License. They can be bought without fuss from Ofcom on the web. Bit pricey, but Ofcom will issue a licence unless it's for use in a Group A TV area. There it risks interfering with TV programmes, and they'd want a different radio.

                                          Where I live no-one it's extremely unlikely anyone would notice a Comica radio microphone because this isn't a Group A area and most of my neighbours have satellite dishes. And I'm sure many others stream TV off the internet. Are you in a Group A area Ian?

                                          Dave

                                          #610757
                                          Ian Parkin
                                          Participant
                                            @ianparkin39383

                                            I’m in sheffield south yorkshire

                                            #610759
                                            Ian Parkin
                                            Participant
                                              @ianparkin39383

                                              Just looking at the ofcom pages linked above by SOD

                                              are radio microphones being short range devices exempt?

                                              see IR 2030

                                              part IR 2030/24

                                              Edited By Ian Parkin on 22/08/2022 18:40:33

                                              #610831
                                              Simon Williams 3
                                              Participant
                                                @simonwilliams3

                                                No such luck, except for the licence exempt frequencies as discussed already. IR2030 is the legalese of interfacing with equivalent (and hopefully non contradictory) requirements in the EEC.

                                                There is no licence exemption on the basis of low power alone, only low power AND the use of specific frequencies.

                                              Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
                                              • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                              Advert

                                              Latest Replies

                                              Home Forums The Tea Room Topics

                                              Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                              Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                              View full reply list.

                                              Advert

                                              Newsletter Sign-up