Is it really a joke

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Is it really a joke

This topic has 47 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 9 April 2022 at 10:13 by Bob Unitt 1.

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7 April 2022 at 12:33 #593362
Dalboy
Participant
@dalboy
Part 1

Added to the below is the additional problem for owners without a garage recharging an EV parked on the road outside a residence (cables across the pavement?).

This is even worse for inner-city dwellers where one can rarely park outside one’s own home.

On top of that the collective governments take something like 60% of the fuel dollar on taxes. Who and how are the going to make up for that enormous shortfall.

Plus no one talks about the inability of recycling lithium batteries.

I don’t think a lot of people realise we still need a reliable source of power.

Electric Vehicles.

The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!

In the first part of our exposé on the problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague.

EV Charging Insanity.

1. In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?

2. ICSC-Canada board member New Zealand-based consulting engineer Bryan Leyland describes why installing electric car charging stations in a city is impractical :

“If you’ve got cars coming into a petrol station, they would stay for an average of five minutes. If you’ve got cars coming into an electric charging station, they would be at least 30 minutes, possibly an hour, but let’s say its 30 minutes. So that’s six times the surface area to park the cars while they’re being charged. So, multiply every petrol station in a city by six. Where are you going to find the place to put them?”

3. The government of the United Kingdom is already starting to plan for power shortages caused by the charging of thousands of EVs. Starting in June 2022, the government will restrict the time of day you can charge your EV battery. To do this, they will employ smart meters that are programmed to automatically switch off EV charging in peak times to avoid potential blackouts.
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7 April 2022 at 12:33 #36819
Dalboy
Participant
@dalboy
7 April 2022 at 12:34 #593363
Dalboy
Participant
@dalboy
Part 2

4. In particular, the latest UK chargers will be pre-set to not function during 9-hours of peak loads, from 8 am to 11 am (3-hours), and 4 pm to 10 pm (6-hours). Unbelievably, the UK technology decides when and if an EV can be charged, and even allows EV batteries to be drained into the UK grid if required. Imagine charging your car all night only to discover in the morning that your battery is flat since the state took the power back. Better keep your gas-powered car as a reliable and immediately available backup! While EV charging will be an attractive source of revenue generation for the government, American citizens will be up in arms.

Used Car Market.

5. The average used EV will need a new battery before an owner can sell it, pricing them well above used internal combustion cars. The average age of an American car on the road is 12 years. A 12-year-old EV will be on its third battery. A Tesla battery typically costs $10,000 so there will not be many 12-year-old EVs on the road. Good luck trying to sell your used green fairy tale electric car!

6. Tuomas Katainen, an enterprising Finish Tesla owner, had an imaginative solution to the battery replacement problem—he blew up his car! New York City-based Insider magazine reported (December 27, 2021) :

“The shop told him the faulty battery needed to be replaced, at a cost of about $22,000. In addition to the hefty fee, the work would need to be authorized by Tesla. Rather than shell out half the cost of a new Tesla to fix an old one, Katainen decided to do something different. The demolition experts from the YouTube channel Pommijätkät (Bomb Dudes) strapped 66 pounds of high explosives to the car and surrounded the area with slow-motion cameras. The 14 hotdog-shaped charges erupt into a blinding ball of fire, sending a massive shockwave rippling out from the car. The videos of the explosion have a combined 5 million views.”

7. We understand that the standard Tesla warranty does not cover “damage resulting from intentional actions,” like blowing the car up for a YouTube video.
7 April 2022 at 12:36 #593364
Dalboy
Participant
@dalboy
Part 3

EVs Per Block In Your Neighborhood.

8. A home charging system for a Tesla requires a 75-amp service. The average house is equipped with 100-amp service. On most suburban streets the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla. For half the homes on your block to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly overloaded.

Batteries.

9. Although the modern lithium-ion battery is four times better than the old lead-acid battery, gasoline holds 80 times the energy density. The great lithium battery in your cell phone weighs less than an ounce while the Tesla battery weighs 1,000 pounds. And what do we get for this huge cost and weight? We get a car that is far less convenient and less useful than cars powered by internal combustion engines. Bryan Leyland explained why :

“When the Model T came out, it was a dramatic improvement on the horse and cart. The electric car is a step backward into the equivalence of an ordinary car with a tiny petrol tank that takes half an hour to fill. It offers nothing in the way of convenience or extra facilities.”

Our Conclusion.

10. The electric automobile will always be around in a niche market likely never exceeding 10% of the cars on the road. All automobile manufacturers are investing in their output and all will be disappointed in their sales. Perhaps they know this and will manufacture just what they know they can sell..
7 April 2022 at 12:41 #593365
Graham Titman
Participant
@grahamtitman81812
Derek that is why they want everyone to have smart meters

Edited By Graham Titman on 07/04/2022 12:41:35
7 April 2022 at 12:49 #593366
Ian Parkin
Participant
@ianparkin39383
Derek

point 1 should be 50 Kwatt not watt
7 April 2022 at 12:50 #593367
JA
Participant
@ja
Derek

Is most of your posting a copy of an article? If so, it would be nice to have a reference.

The comments, which make a lot of sense, are more than interesting, in fact a bit disturbing.

My immediate thought, since I am not going to buy an EV, is smart meters. If variable tariff charges come in electricity could be cheap during the day.

JA

Posted before seeing Graham's comment.

Edited By JA on 07/04/2022 12:52:33
7 April 2022 at 13:11 #593371
Ex contributor
Participant
@mgnbuk
So much there that is just wrong.

Reads like an American article written by antis looking for excuses – and quoting incorrect UK "facts" to back up their viewpoint.

My brother's 6 year old Leaf should be halfway through its second battery according to the "facts" above – strange that the original item still shows 97% of manufactured capacity & range remains the same as when the car was new ? And the OE battery on that car is guaranteed for 8 years (which seems to be the usual warranty period for the high voltage battery in other makes as well) & will be replaced if capacity drops below 75% within that time.

Home charge points are not rapid chargers – a 100A supply will run the standard 7Kw home charge point comfortably from a 32A breaker.

Not suggesting that EVs or the current charging infrastructure are perfect, but most of the quoted "article" assertions are either suspect of just wrong.

Nigel B.
7 April 2022 at 13:18 #593372
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
Standardised quick-change battery packs will be the way to go. Already doing it with heavy trucks in Australia. Car pulls into a service station and leaves a few minutes later with a newly installed fully charged battery pack. Flat battery pack is left behind to be recharged by wind or solar etc. Motorcycle manufacturers have already worked out an industry standard battery pack. Car makers will need to do the same.

Or do what some American YouTubers have done. Take the dead Tesla, rip out the electrics and install a honkin' great Cummins diesel engine with overclocked injectors so they can drive past cyclists and blow black smoke all over them. Gotta love 'Merka.
7 April 2022 at 13:23 #593373
HOWARDT
Participant
@howardt
Read recently the environmental cost of actually building cars in the first place. It said it took around 50,000 for a petrol/ diesel car as against around 90,000 for an electric vehicle to get to net zero. I should think that at those sort of mileages in the UK you would be near to the end of life batteries in terms of years of operation.
7 April 2022 at 13:24 #593374
HOWARDT
Participant
@howardt
Missed out ‘miles’.
7 April 2022 at 13:26 #593376
Gerard O’Toole
Participant
@gerardotoole60348
It is actually printed by these nutters in America

Who We Are – America Out Loud

Make your own judgement on the veracity of any facts they publish
7 April 2022 at 13:31 #593377
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
Posted by JA on 07/04/2022 12:50:48:

Derek

Is most of your posting a copy of an article? If so, it would be nice to have a reference.

Its an unsigned "guest column" on a site called Hoboken411. https://hoboken411.com/archives/141312

No mention of the author's name or qualifications or expertise in the field, and no references as to where the information comes from. Possibly "did his own research" on Google. Other columns on the site include "Fact Checking is the New Propaganda Ministry" and anti-mandatory-vax articles.

So yeah probably is a joke.

Edited By Hopper on 07/04/2022 13:38:58
7 April 2022 at 13:40 #593379
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
Posted by Gerard O'Toole on 07/04/2022 13:26:49:

It is actually printed by these nutters in America

Who We Are – America Out Loud

Make your own judgement on the veracity of any facts they publish

But who is Malcolm? Does he not have a surname? Or are we all such good buddies it's first name basis only?
7 April 2022 at 13:40 #593380
Harry Wilkes
Participant
@harrywilkes58467
Posted by Gerard O'Toole on 07/04/2022 13:26:49:

It is actually printed by these nutters in America

Who We Are – America Out Loud

Make your own judgement on the veracity of any facts they publish

Nutters or not it's going to happen EV's batteries and energy companies using smart meters to change different rates during the day ! The tariff my company was on when I finished work the rate around 'teatime' led us to stop the afternoon shift

h
7 April 2022 at 13:51 #593383
Frances IoM
Participant
@francesiom58905
in the 1980s I wrote the software to control individual lights (fluorescent tubes) in open plan office by users at desks under such lights – originally seen as just something to avoid complaints with energy saving a small bonus – in fact I was told it paid for itself with a couple of years as it the energy saved was not just the lights but office air conditioning which was pushing the electricity usage into the penal price range designed to avoid overloading the supply – hadn’t occurred to the company occupying the office as provision of lighting etc was the landlords concern – software allowed for major reorganisation of office space over a single night – luckily as developer my graveyard shifts were just for standby during initial commissioning in case of unforeseen funnies.

Edited By Frances IoM on 07/04/2022 13:51:57

Edited By Frances IoM on 07/04/2022 13:52:32
7 April 2022 at 13:52 #593384
J Hancock
Participant
@jhancock95746
All charged by the eight 'new' nuclear reactors we are going to build and have running by 2030.

Ten if Hinkley C is not included plus the 25GW of additional windmills ……………

Any bets ?
7 April 2022 at 13:52 #593385
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
According to Elon Musk on Twitter, Tesla car batteries are supposed to technically last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles, which is 1,500 battery cycles. That's between 22 and 37 years for the average car driver, who, according to the Department of Transportation, drives about 13,500 miles per year. (Source: Energysage.com)

Hey if it was on Twitter it must be true.
7 April 2022 at 14:19 #593388
Samsaranda
Participant
@samsaranda
Different tariffs at peak times of the day are the stated intentions of Utility companies, this can only be achieved by using Smart meters, so far I have refused to have one fitted despite constant emails and phonecalls from my energy supplier, I am sure that at some time in the future a statute will appear requiring us all to succumb or be cut off from energy suppliers. Electricity is only going to get more expensive as somehow the extra infrastructure that will be needed will have to be paid for, we are already paying for the rollout of the smart meters and at the last estimate each one fitted cost in excess of £100, financed by us the customers. I have solar panels on my roof and battery storage so I can mitigate some of the costs of electricity by using appliances when the sun shines, not looking forward to the grid being able to rob from my batteries when the grid runs short, and yes this issue has already been debated and approved as a way to go when we are all connected via smart meters. I am not intending to purchase an EV because at 75 years of age now my driving days will probably be over when there are no more internal combustion engined vehicles left on our roads. My view of the future is not rosy, hopefully I am wrong, but the past track record of our country is not good when adapting to change. Dave W
7 April 2022 at 14:39 #593391
Martin Connelly
Participant
@martinconnelly55370
I think the intention of governments is to get electric cars and the required infrastructure established and hope that battery technology improves at a reasonable rate. An improved battery would weigh a lot less than the current ones, charge quickly, hold a bigger charge, last a long time, use something less dangerous than lithium and be easily recycled. I don't intend to hold my breath waiting for all these features to come true. This would still leave the problem of the supply capacity.

Martin C
7 April 2022 at 15:04 #593393
Ian McVickers
Participant
@ianmcvickers56553
My Hyundai ioniq battery is guaranteed for 8 years to still be above 80% capacity I think. I have a low cost charging rate between 2am and 6am. Different companies offer different charge rates and times. I have a 7KW charge point fitted which also allows me to charge directly from solar panels if they are generating enough power. This is a good option rather than selling it back to the grid for 6ppkw.

The only issue as has been said is the network availability. Went to Fort William at the weekend, planned route and charge points. and found all of the new Chargeplace Scotland points in An Aird car park not working. The older Evolt charge point worked only on ac charge, dc fast charge not working. Not surprisingly all of the 6 or so Tesla chargers were working perfectly.

Ended up using the chargers at the Nevis Range while we were there. 50ppkw wasnt cheap though.

Edited By Ian McVickers on 07/04/2022 15:09:21
7 April 2022 at 15:32 #593397
pgk pgk
Participant
@pgkpgk17461
There's so much wrong with that article I don't have the interest in refuting it all. Point 1- ev charging v garage. You don't need a facility with huge underground tanks so chargers can be in any carpark. For overnight charging 7.4kw chargers are fine. For fast charging on the go a 50kw charger would be thought slow. 150,250 even 350kw chargers exist but with reality of what batteries can take and charge reduction as they fill then 120kw chargers will do and fill a 75kwh pack from 20 to 80% in half an hour.

2000cars in 12hrs = 160'ish per hour so 80 fast chargers is more than enough. Anyone know of a motorway services or city carpark with 80 spaces? There are 24 tesla chargers at the Heathrow Hilton already with speeds from 120 to 250kw without West London being plunged in darkness (and no petrol). It's perfectly doable.
7 April 2022 at 17:07 #593407
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
A couple of chargers appeared outside my Village Hall and Community Shop last month. Not seen anyone plugged in yet but it will come.

Many EV-fears echo what was said when motor cars first appeared on British roads. Can't happen because:
- All the roads will have to be tarmacked
- Cars can't mingle with horses, bicycles, trams or traction engines
- Policemen will always stop them on sight to check speed and documentation
- Much too expensive and unreliable
- Driving one in winter risks exposure (and female internals can't cope with speed)
- World supply of rubber for tyres is insufficient
- Can't be left unattended on the street
- Never be enough trained chauffeurs
- Have to run on coal because oil has to be imported
- Nowhere to buy motor-spirit, have punctures fixed, or the engine mended
- Produce toxic fumes
- Railways are much faster, more comfortable and can move heavy goods through an efficient national distribution network
For some reason, Victorians couldn't comprehend 30 million privately owned cars, artificial rubber, roads almost universally metalled, with dual-carriageways, motorways, petrol stations, and no horses, trams or traction engines to speak of. And no Empire! Just as we today cannot comprehend the scale of change over the next century. Quite a few of our sacred cows are heading for the chopping block, whether we like it or not.

To misquote LP Hartley, 'The past and the future are foreign countries, they do things differently there.'

Time to get on with fixing energy and other resource issues rather than hoping they will magically go away – the problem is urgent.

Dave
7 April 2022 at 17:22 #593411
Peter G. Shaw
Participant
@peterg-shaw75338
Just one point. I have a 100A supply. I also have storage heaters and a 3kw immersion heater running on the off peak. If, and it's a largish if, I were to use all of the heaters, plus the immersion heater, I would draw something like 67A leaving 33A for normal usage. Now bear in mind that we also run our washing machine at night, and you can see that there isn't that much headroom for a high power EV charger. Even running a "standard" 7kW charger could take me perilously close to 100A. All figures are approximate and worst case, but even so, taking the best case it would still be a very high loading. What's more, I've a sneaky suspicion that we may be sharing a feed with our next door neighbour even though we are all detached.

Frankly, it's a nonsense.

Peter G. Shaw
7 April 2022 at 18:37 #593419
Stuart Smith 5
Participant
@stuartsmith5
Each house may have a supply with a 100A fuse, but the distribution network is not designed to provide everyone with that simultaneously. In fact, historically the network will have been designed at 1.5kW per property so it won’t take many people trying to run a 7.4kW charger at the same time to overload the network.

Stuart
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