Trubble at Matelot Mill (VFD drive issues?)

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Trubble at Matelot Mill (VFD drive issues?)

This topic has 35 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 25 November 2016 at 19:15 by Neil Wyatt.

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29 January 2016 at 09:53 #223012
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
(Not new engines, a new genny. Seems to conk out at random though… oops)

The Royal Navy's most modern warships are to be fitted with new engines because they keep breaking down.

In an email seen by the BBC, a serving Royal Navy officer wrote that "total electric failures are common" on its fleet of six £1bn Type 45 destroyers.

The Ministry of Defence said there were reliability issues with the propulsion system and work to fix it would be done to ensure "ships remain available".

One Royal Navy officer said the cost could reach tens of millions of pounds.

In a statement, the MoD told the BBC that to "address some reliability issues" it was considering options to "upgrade the ships' diesel generators to add greater resilience to the power and the propulsion system".

That will involve significant work, though the Royal Navy insists that the six destroyers will still be deployed all over the world.

Nick Childs, of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said: "It's an unfortunate extra cost the Royal Navy will have to swallow to sort out an unreliable propulsion system – the major weak link in an otherwise world-beating system.

"They're essentially going to have to squeeze in an extra generator to improve reliability."

The warning signs were there in 2009 when the Commons Defence Committee published its report on the Type 45.

MPs noted "persistent over-optimism and underestimation of the technical challenges, combined with inappropriate commercial arrangements" leading to rising costs.

Each destroyer ended up costing about £1bn. The Royal Navy wanted 12 ships but ended up with half that number.

The Type 45 has an integrated electric propulsion system that powers everything on board.

**LINK**

Edited By Ady1 on 29/01/2016 10:13:00
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29 January 2016 at 09:53 #34607
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
UKs Type 45 destroyers face engine refit
29 January 2016 at 10:01 #223013
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
It never ceases to astound me that seemingly otherwise useless MPs can come out with erudite comments on matters that must have stretched their intellectual capabilities.
29 January 2016 at 10:07 #223015
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
**LINK**
29 January 2016 at 10:08 #223016
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
The Type 45 has an integrated electric propulsion system that powers everything on board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Power_Conversion

Or not… depending on how the engine feels… hence the extra genny requirement I presume…

Edited By Ady1 on 29/01/2016 10:14:40
29 January 2016 at 10:59 #223020
mechman48
Participant
@mechman48
Back to the old cost cutting exercise again, along with poor management, incorrect costing procedures etc. ( typical of the government ), & using other machinery when we've had our own propulsion systems that worked perfectly for years… probably made with parts from China even though they are American propulsion systems, ( ? ) China exports a heck of a lot of stuff to the US as far as I'm aware, just like the rest of the world…

'Nuff of my political rant for this week…

George.
29 January 2016 at 12:20 #223031
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
All this new technology…

**LINK**

Neil
29 January 2016 at 13:38 #223039
JA
Participant
@ja
Posted by KWIL on 29/01/2016 10:01:41:

It never ceases to astound me that seemingly otherwise useless MPs can come out with erudite comments on matters that must have stretched their intellectual capabilities.

Simple, I think:

If you, as a committee, have an uncluttered mind or a large enough mix of persons to balance out political prejudices, you can cut through the preconceptions, cherished ideas, holy cows and other such hobby horses loved and protected by the military, the engineers, the team managers and uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

Remember the simple, very simple or nieve, question, frequently results in the most interesting and complex answers and admissions.

JA
30 January 2016 at 06:41 #223140
clogs
Participant
@clogs
Hi all,

not so long retired from the wind-turbine industry…..

it all boil's down to the men (liberal use of the "men"word) in suits and the those in the overall's that actually know what works…..

if you want something to work ask the engineers that use it….don't ask the salesmen and the bloody accountants….

I had the experience of having to explain to the management morons who thought and designed a new part for our latest turbine……the ides was good but they didn't think of how we would be able to do the bolts (60mm dia) up…no room for the socket……this part cost over £20grand……just scrap it and say nothing was the answer……

the money came from the EU development grant !!!!!!!

in the job interview, this project is a team effort…..hahaha…..

as alway's it's them and us………..

cheers clogs
30 January 2016 at 07:19 #223142
Sam Longley 1
Participant
@samlongley1
Watching the item on BBC news they showed a room full of computer screens

I could not help thinking that a hit from one 6 inch shell would make the entire ship inoperative

I suppose the same would happen if one hit the generators

Seems weird that there are no backup systems
30 January 2016 at 09:16 #223157
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
I understand that they have 2 ring mains on a warship. Also separate generating stations for other purposes.
30 January 2016 at 10:13 #223163
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
I wonder what happens if the wobbly screw that presses on the switch on the prop shaft safety cover moves a bit …….

Perhaps the backup system should start with a tall straight pine tree…..
30 January 2016 at 10:38 #223168
Sam Longley 1
Participant
@samlongley1
Posted by Clive Hartland on 30/01/2016 09:16:22:

I understand that they have 2 ring mains on a warship. Also separate generating stations for other purposes.

One would have thought so, but on the BBC programme it indicated the section of the ship where both generators are fitted suggesting that they are side by side

I believe the Russians have now got a DVD of it

Knowing our lot, the backup is probably an Ipad- at least they work!!!

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 30/01/2016 10:40:02
30 January 2016 at 10:56 #223174
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
I could not help thinking that a hit from one 6 inch shell would make the entire ship inoperative

The Sea wolf system is meant to catch them things in mid-air, as is the newer Aster system

(Sea wolf could even sometimes catch an occasional 4.5 inch shell in the 1980s)

Anyway, lobbing shells within sight of each other is meant to be obsolete in our new shiny high tech world (or so they hope)
30 January 2016 at 10:59 #223177
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
The Troop Ship Nevasa had three generators side by side, this was a 22000 ton ship and my visit to the engine room was very interesting.

Twin screw steam turbine and the turbines were very small to what i imagined. The Vulcan clutch was a massive device on the prop shaft.

The engineer told me they only ran 2 generators at a time coupled up and the 3rd. one was standby.

Clive, best 35 day holiday i ever had going to Hong Kong.
30 January 2016 at 11:04 #223180
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
Never underestimate what can be done with a few active braincells and some old technology though…

1999 F-117A shootdown

Unknown to NATO, Yugoslav air defenses operators had found they could detect F-117s with their obsolete Soviet radars after some modifications.

**LINK**
30 January 2016 at 11:40 #223190
Circlip
Participant
@circlip
Once had to quote for some equipment mounting base frames for the then new SSNs. Went through the normal costing exercises including profit margin that were normally OK for others, but in this case, an extra overall 40% was added. Didn't get the contract – – – – we were told by the main contractor we couldn't make them for the price we quoted.

The son of a colleague was selling, to the MOD., a Stainless split pin in a sealed plastic sachet containing the part no. printed on a bit of paper for £3.50 – – – – individual civvy cost 10p.

Difficult trying to balance costs, Look what happened to the triple indemnity Nimrods.

Some of the new Naval electronics kit is now being sold to them as equipment fit for the purpose required, guy that talks to the purchasers has over twenty years hands on using the past c**p that was supplied.

Regards Ian

Edited By Circlip on 30/01/2016 11:41:42
30 January 2016 at 12:43 #223200
mechman48
Participant
@mechman48
Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 30/01/2016 10:38:44:

Posted by Clive Hartland on 30/01/2016 09:16:22:

I understand that they have 2 ring mains on a warship. Also separate generating stations for other purposes.

One would have thought so, but on the BBC programme it indicated the section of the ship where both generators are fitted suggesting that they are side by side

I believe the Russians have now got a DVD of it

Knowing our lot, the backup is probably an Ipad- at least they work!!!

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 30/01/2016 10:40:02

It amazes me that in the interest of 'National Security' we openly disclose / broadcast all our technology globally via the BBC news… probs with our ships… our drone statistics etc. … army / troop size dispositions etc. who needs spies, our 'enemies' only have to sit & watch the BBC news to get all & any information they need … it seems that our National Security system, & the BBC, seem more than a bit lax, or very naïve when it comes to keeping their mouths shut, the old WW2 adage 'Walls have ears' is no longer apt… just been replaced by 'watch the BBC news … get all you need' … obviously approved & sanctioned by the MOD!

George.
30 January 2016 at 13:05 #223203
Clive Hartland
Participant
@clivehartland94829
The MOD media section is well known for FUBARS, giving away the name and address of a sniper during the Afghan session. This lad was the one who made the longest kill!. You should read his book about and how he was just disowned by the MOD and his parent Regt. Now seperated and in hiding.
30 January 2016 at 21:33 #223271
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
This sort of thing drive me mad. The military always want the latest, the accountants the cheapest and the engineers are caught in the middle. In the end the salesmen take the risk, "yeh, sure it will be OK". Afterwards the politicians say " lessons will be learnt ".

Can you remember the sight of 90% completed passenger sized airplanes that were being scrapped? (About 10 years ago?)..

It just goes on, computers, PFI, privatisation, the list goes on, our establishment are a load of responsibility evading ninnies. It would be nice to remove their pensions and knighthoods when their sins are found out.

Frank
31 January 2016 at 03:03 #223283
mechman48
Participant
@mechman48
Posted by frank brown on 30/01/2016 21:33:04:

This sort of thing drive me mad. The military always want the latest, the accountants the cheapest and the engineers are caught in the middle. In the end the salesmen take the risk, "yeh, sure it will be OK". Afterwards the politicians say " lessons will be learnt ".

Can you remember the sight of 90% completed passenger sized airplanes that were being scrapped? (About 10 years ago?)..

It just goes on, computers, PFI, privatisation, the list goes on, our establishment are a load of responsibility evading ninnies. It would be or mouthnice to remove their pensions and knighthoods when their sins are found out.

Frank

Wash your mouth out Frank; you can't take away a politicians pension & knighthood, how would they survive ; OMG how could they manage on the state pension as it stands now! Golly gosh what would they do without their expenses for gods sake, 99% of them don't even know what a loaf of bread costs; even the youngest SNP politician has only just left uni… still in her nappies… I'll bet she has her student loan wiped out, or offset against expenses!. Politicians have no idea of the real world…. they live on cloud cuckoo land
24 February 2016 at 15:36 #226722
John Fielding
Participant
@johnfielding34086
The Sea wolf system is meant to catch them things in mid-air, as is the newer Aster system

(Sea wolf could even sometimes catch an occasional 4.5 inch shell in the 1980s)

Ah, the much maligned Sea Wolf. I had almost forgotten about that system.

I worked for the company that did the development work on Sea Wolf, it was called Marconi Space & Defense Systems back in the days. The RN kept telling us there was no money for its production year after year.

And then the Falkland War in 1982 suddenly made it "extra high priority" and their lordships wanted it like yesterday. It was a brilliant system.

Basically it was the sea borne version of the DN181 Rapier missile system but it had a self leveling gymbal platform to counter the pitching and rolling on board a ship. The RN finally got it into service about 3 years after the Falklands crisis was all done and dusted, just as we had told them it would take after receipt of order many years before.
25 November 2016 at 00:54 #268296
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
HMS Duncan conks out on maneuvres

Royal Navy’s hi-tech destroyer breaks down in NATO wargame, towed back to port

One of the Royal Navy’s cutting edge Type 45 destroyers had to be humiliatingly towed back to port just two days after setting off to take part in NATO exercises.

The HMS Duncan is believed to have suffered total propulsion failure, forcing it back into Plymouth harbor on Wednesday, according to the Telegraph.

The 4,500 ton hi-tech ship left Davenport naval base on Sunday to take part in naval exercises alongside Spanish, Portuguese and German warships.

**LINK**
25 November 2016 at 01:00 #268297
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
The US Navys latest offering is also prone to conking out with the same drive system

The Navy's New Stealth Destroyer Broke Down in the Panama Canal

The USS Zumwalt experienced an "engineering casualty" and collided with the canal walls.

The US Navy's newest destroyer broke down while transiting the Panama Canal, colliding with the Canal lock walls and forcing the $4 billion dollar ship to resort to a tow from a tugboat. The USS Zumwalt was towed to a former U.S. naval station in Panama where it will undergo emergency repairs. This is just months after a similar incident in September.

**LINK**
25 November 2016 at 09:01 #268313
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
The 'stealth' motor needs a new rubber band.

Might by interesting to explain why these 'stealth' machines always have lots of flat surfaces. Imagine light or radar hitting a typical convex surface – the light is reflected away at all angles, with a flat surface it all bounces off in one direction so the foe has to be exactly aligned with the surface. Clearly other ships will never align with the stealth ship's angled surfaces and a plane or missile would have to fly directly towards the ship at exactly the right angle to get a steady signal.

It isn't unusual to see reflections of the sun on car windscreens from many miles away, yet imagine how hard it would be to use a mirror to exactly illuminate a spot at such a distance.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 25/11/2016 09:06:51
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