Can you help me re-connect my dip switch?

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Can you help me re-connect my dip switch?

This topic has 36 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 22 November 2022 at 16:56 by John Doe 2.

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15 November 2022 at 21:08 #621249
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
The system was working, but untidy, and I took it apart without noting exactly how the two microswitches, and relays, were connected. The two relays are simple ON/ON switches, each switch operated by a tiny solenoid (as normal). The control lever operates two microswitches, each with C, NO, and NC, one at each end of its travel. And it worked well, but the wiring was untidy (and all the same colour), so I thought I would improve it. But in the six years since I built it I have forgotten how it should be connected.

Thje dip switch must only work when the headlamps are on, and gives two positions, main and dip beams.

The flasher switch turns the main beam on at all times when the car is in use, and when Flash is operated with dip on, the dip beam goes out while the main flash is on.

Two relays – one for dip fed from the fused headlamp switch, the other for flash fed from the ignition switch via a fuse.

A sketch would be ideal, and saves a lot of writing – Can you help, please?

Regards – Tim

I am avoiding use of the term 'simple' as it has me foxed. And sorry for the untidy headline – I can't edit it.

Edited By Tim Stevens on 15/11/2022 21:10:43
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15 November 2022 at 21:08 #34120
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
I need a relay as a dip switch while they are switched on, and another relay to flash the maijn beam at any time.headlamps.
15 November 2022 at 21:24 #621253
bernard towers
Participant
@bernardtowers37738
Why not look at an inline wiring diagram?
15 November 2022 at 21:52 #621257
Howard Lewis
Participant
@howardlewis46836
It seems to me that the "Dip / Main" relay needs to function as a single pole changeover switch, with the stationary "Common" contact fed from the Headlamp circuit. The Dip Switch would feed current to the relay coil, presumably only when "Main" is selected, so that the "Common" contact then feeds current to !Main" filament circuit.through the "Normally Open" contact..

If the Relay can be of the latching type, the coil would only be enrgiswed to change fro Dip to Main, or vice versa.

The capability to flash the headlamps can be accommodated by the "Flash" Relay coil being fed through the "Flash" switch, from an ignition live point (Assuming no need to flash the lights when the engine is dead) If the "Flash" facility is needed at all times the relay coil feed would need to be from a constantly live point.

The stationary contact of the "Flash" Relay would be fed from the same point, with the "Normally Closed" contact being strapped to the "Main" contact on the "Dip / Main" relay…

HTH

Howard
15 November 2022 at 22:22 #621265
noel shelley
Participant
@noelshelley55608
What you describe is a standart type of dip/main beam circuit what vehicle is it ? I can send you a copy of my peugeot diagram if that will help. Noel.
16 November 2022 at 10:31 #621317
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
For Noel: the vehicle is a 1928 Lea Francis, and it came from the factory with a system which is no longer legal or sensible. That's why I did not mention it. For example, charging control was by turning the dynamo on or off – no other choice.

For Howard: thanks – I think you have solved it, and I will go and play with wires. You may be interested to know that the idea of ball-ended supports for taper turning (etc) is explored in my book 'Workholding for Machinists'.

Regards, Tim Stevens
16 November 2022 at 17:03 #621379
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
Cancel my last message as regards Howards solution. I'm sorry, but I am still stuck. If anyone is still there … ? … please re-consider my question – thanks.

And if anyone- including Howard – can draw me a diagram of Howard's version, I will reconsider that, too.

Regards, Tim
16 November 2022 at 19:07 #621409
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
I'm having a think Tim. Sacrifice a virgin and watch this space!
16 November 2022 at 19:27 #621415
mark costello 1
Participant
@markcostello1
Virgins are too costly and scarce anything cheaper?
16 November 2022 at 19:52 #621421
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Tim,

Does one of the relays have a change over contact, or are they both on/off only?

Dave
16 November 2022 at 20:16 #621424
noel shelley
Participant
@noelshelley55608
It very much depends on what micro switches and relays you have as to how it was wired up. The simple answer would be to use a dip switch of the floor mounted type used in the 60s/70s ! fused side light circuit NO fuse on a headlight circuit, panel switch to dip switch and 2 wires to each bulb, no micro switches and NO relays. Each bulb wired to chassis. Flasher – ignition live to flash switch then to coil and other coil connection to chassis. Fused live from battery or light switch to moving contact main beam filaments to NO contact.use a 20A relay If using auto motive relays then connection 31 is ground/chassis Noel.
16 November 2022 at 20:33 #621427
Robert Atkinson 2
Participant
@robertatkinson2
Tim,
A couple of questions:
Is there a separate on/off switch for the headlight or is it all on the stalk?
What are the physical positions of the control lever? How many positions? Do they stay in position or spring back?

Robert.
16 November 2022 at 20:49 #621432
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by noel shelley on 16/11/2022 20:16:08:

It very much depends on what micro switches and relays you have as to how it was wired up. The simple answer would be to use a dip switch of the floor mounted type used in the 60s/70s ! fused side light circuit NO fuse on a headlight circuit, panel switch to dip switch and 2 wires to each bulb, no micro switches and NO relays. Each bulb wired to chassis. Flasher – ignition live to flash switch then to coil and other coil connection to chassis. Fused live from battery or light switch to moving contact main beam filaments to NO contact.use a 20A relay If using auto motive relays then connection 31 is ground/chassis Noel.

Having drawn a partial truth table, the hard part is the last entry:

If the headlights are On AND Dipped, then Flash has to turn the Dipped Beam off and the Main beam on. I think it's easy if a change over relay is available, but I've not spotted a way of doing it with a simple on/off relay.

Dave
16 November 2022 at 20:57 #621437
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
Dave, Robert:

The relays are identical, and both have two contacts for the solenoid, and three for the contacts.

The headlamps are switched on separately (as a pair, but not the same switch as the dip) using the original Side-tail, and Head, switch. Within reach in the dip-switch box is a fused live feed and a non-fused ignition-on feed. A futher main switch disconnects everything overnight.

The dip control lever has three positions, much like a 1960-1990 car, with, in order towards you, mainbeam, dip, and flash. Main, or dip, stays where you put it, while flash is spring loaded to OFF.

Each of the microswitches is operated by the control lever, at each end of the lever movement, and both have on-A & on-B positions.

It is not a simple matter to change to a foot dip switch, as it is complicated enough driving with a central throttle pedal, (and a right side gear stick on a RH Drive car).

And incidentally, the headlamps and side, tail, etc are all LEDs, because the max output from the dynamo is 8 amps (and only then when pressing on). The reason I don't want Dip to stay on when I use the Flash is that the Headlamps are old fashioned, each in their own small space, and the bulbs in each are cooled with an integral fan. As the volume is small I hope to avoid overheating in there if both 'filaments' are on (but perhaps I am fussing over nowt).

Hoping this helps your cogitating.

PS I would send you a circuit diagram but (of course) I haven't worked out what it looks like yet.(!)

Regards, Tim
16 November 2022 at 20:58 #621438
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 20:49:26:

[…]

If the headlights are On AND Dipped, then Flash has to turn the Dipped Beam off and the Main beam on. I think it's easy if a change over relay is available, but I've not spotted a way of doing it with a simple on/off relay.

Dave

.

For the purpose of ‘flashing’ … I suspect that it would do no great harm to have both filaments briefly lit

Happy to be wrong, but it would seem to be a simple [and possibly safer] solution.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ Sorry, Tim … that appears to have crossed with your own post.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 20:59:52

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 21:26:08
16 November 2022 at 21:11 #621441
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
SoD: As you will have seen (I hope) both the relays are on-A and on-B. This is the same option set as the two microswitches, which incidentally operate at the two extreme positions for the dip control.

And an oversight – along with live and ignition feeds in the dip switch area, there is a 'both headlamps feed' from the lighting switch.

(I don't suppose it matters, but the identity colours are green, white, and blue in the order bold above. In line with the relevant British Standard)

Cheers, Tim
17 November 2022 at 07:23 #621462
John Doe 2
Participant
@johndoe2
Here is a starting point, the top circuit will not kill the dipped beams when flashing the mains, but otherwise it will work. Where I have written head lights top left, is the supply from the battery, the switch next to it is the headlight on/off switch.

Ignore the bottom diagram – it won't work: as soon as the high beams come on the upper relay coil will relax and switch them off !!

Black terminals on the relays are the normally closed, resting position. The coils are the relay operating solenoids.

I am still thinking about it – and couldn't get to sleep last night ! I now know the two micro switches are SPDP, so I might be able to improve the circuit. Can you give us a truth table as to which stalk action operates which micro switch.

Sorry about the very rough diags – no time to improve them for a couple of days.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 17/11/2022 07:31:19

Edited By John Doe 2 on 17/11/2022 07:32:18
17 November 2022 at 08:30 #621470
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
Thanks, John Doe 2, but I have – I'm sorry – already got that far. But don't be put off – the answer is out there somewhere.

Regards, Tim
17 November 2022 at 10:15 #621484
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
For review:

I think Tim's lights obey the following logic:
1. Flash always turns on main (high beam)
2. When main beam is ON, dip beam is always OFF
3. Headlight ON allows two switches to activate either dip or main, but not both
I suggest this circuit, which assumes a relay with a Normally Closed contact.

The relay disconnects the dip lamps whenever the main beam is on.

Comment: strictly speaking only one switch is needed in the Dip/Main selector. But the circuit shown allows dip to go OFF just before main comes ON, and vice versa.

I've not tested the circuit.

Dave
17 November 2022 at 10:20 #621485
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
I think i have worked out my own 'solution' – but first I must work out how to add a picture. Keep your fingers crossed.

It might be the same as SoD's version, but I have combined the switches in a way that stops main and dip being on together, however hard you try …

Cheers, Tim
17 November 2022 at 10:24 #621486
noel shelley
Participant
@noelshelley55608
Dave Flash now only works when the headlights are on, so no daylight flash ? Noel.
17 November 2022 at 10:30 #621487
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
Oh dear. I have made an album, and added my jpeg, but I cannot get it to appear in the message.

I will try again …

Tim
17 November 2022 at 10:36 #621488
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Here’s the ‘handbook’ for posting photos, Tim

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=103028&p=1

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ But, as you have successfully created an Album, all you need to do is click the camera icon, and follow your nose.
Edit: __ and you beat me to it

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/11/2022 10:40:34
17 November 2022 at 10:36 #621489
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
17 November 2022 at 10:47 #621491
Tim Stevens
Participant
@timstevens64731
Right – you now have the diagram.

Got it – at last.

The dip switch assembly is lower left, operated by the faint outline of a T sideways. This moves up for flash, in the middle as shown for Dip, and down for main beam. The ends of the T push the microswitch blades across to the further contact (ring shaped). The relays are on the right and shown in the conventional manner.
G is the green always-on 12 volts in.
U is the blue feed 12 volts from the headlamps switch.
The top output from the relay is not connected, neither is the bottom output from the lower microswitch.

The Dip (as shown) works because it is fed from Green to earth, and so draws a very small current at almost all times (ie except when the flash or main is needed.)

Do let me know if I have got it all wrong.

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 17/11/2022 10:48:14
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