Reciprocating mass instead of flywheel?

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Reciprocating mass instead of flywheel?

Home Forums Stationary engines Reciprocating mass instead of flywheel?

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  • #480147
    pgk pgk
    Participant
      @pgkpgk17461

      I know it sounds daft but wondered if it had been done using a vertical weight raised by the power stroke. It'd still need some sort of crank to get round the dead centres? But if one was after a reciprocating power output (as in saw/filer) it might be more compact?

      pgk

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      #3406
      pgk pgk
      Participant
        @pgkpgk17461
        #480153
        roy entwistle
        Participant
          @royentwistle24699

          Steam Hammer ?

          #480158
          Joseph Noci 1
          Participant
            @josephnoci1

            Don't see how that would work…If at TDC, what would make the crank continue round – and if there is some strange force that could make it turn, why not turn the other way – its 50:50 as to which way it would go then as its only a weight pushing down linearly. How would you generate the reciprocating motion if starting with rotary motion? ( In your saw/filer..) If not starting with a rotary motion, then a piston arrangement, air/steam/solenoid driven would work fine, but has no need of a crank – other than the operator…

            Joe

            #480168
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              Steam pumps seem to manage OK.

              Would you have to gear it 2:1 as you say you want to raise the weight on the power stroke so most steam engines are double acting but that may help if the dropping weight were used to carry it over TDC and BDC

              #480171
              John Haine
              Participant
                @johnhaine32865

                Flywheels store kinetic energy, wouldn't a pendulum be better?

                #480172
                doubletop
                Participant
                  @doubletop

                  Try Stewart Harts Dake engine. No flywheel required at all. He has included one but during the build he confirmed it would run without one

                  Stewart Hart Dake engine

                  Pete

                  #480173
                  Joseph Noci 1
                  Participant
                    @josephnoci1
                    Posted by JasonB on 16/06/2020 10:10:52:

                    Steam pumps seem to manage OK.

                    Would you have to gear it 2:1 as you say you want to raise the weight on the power stroke so most steam engines are double acting but that may help if the dropping weight were used to carry it over TDC and BDC

                    Please explain the motion – the statement 'Steam pumps seem to manage OK' is pehaps just a little arrogant…

                    pgkpgk implies/mentions/questions a crank in the process – your statement implies no crank, but a double acting piston cylinder arrangement – in which I presume the piston is forced one way by the pressure of steam/air/ or whatever, on the one piston face, and when topped out, the force is applied to the other face, pushing the piston the other way. There is no crank involved, and so the discussion is moot.

                    You statement still talks of BDC and TDC, so , mixing concepts again, I assume you are converting linear motion to rotary – which was not part of PgkPgk' question, but nevertheless, the same problem manifests – if there were no flywheel impetus at all, there is no reason for the crank to go round once TDC or BDC is reached.

                    Perhaps PGK could explain a little more as to what he has in mind?

                    Joe

                    #480175
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      2nd one down is what you need

                      Posts crossed, I don't see the need for a crank on a filing or sawing machine and like above shows TDC would be when piston is at one end of stroke, BDC at other

                       

                      Edited By JasonB on 16/06/2020 10:40:54

                      #480176
                      Neil Wyatt
                      Moderator
                        @neilwyatt

                        I can see Jason's suggestion of 2:1 gearing working.

                        You could even use a spring which would be even more compact.

                        I suspect the answer is partly the extra complexity and partly that the energy stored by a flywheel is related to the square of its speed, while the energy in a raised mass is directly proportional to its height.

                        This means a flywheel can give proportionally more energy for a small change in speed, and as the purpose of such a devices is to reduce the change in speed over a rotation a less massive flywheel will do the job more efficiently.

                        Neil

                        #480177
                        Neil Wyatt
                        Moderator
                          @neilwyatt
                          Posted by John Haine on 16/06/2020 10:23:17:

                          Flywheels store kinetic energy, wouldn't a pendulum be better?

                          How about a pendulum that swings right round into a complete circle.

                          We could call it a pendwheel

                          Neil

                          #480178
                          Joseph Noci 1
                          Participant
                            @josephnoci1
                            Posted by Doubletop on 16/06/2020 10:26:04:

                            Try Stewart Harts Dake engine. No flywheel required at all. He has included one but during the build he confirmed it would run without one

                            Stewart Hart Dake engine

                            Pete

                            Unfortunately those posts are 2012 era, and none of the associated videos of operation seem to be around any more – however, all articles I come across with google seem to show a flywheel as part of the thing – even when masquerading as a 'pulley'…Also could not find anywhere where in Mr Hart's post where he mentions the no flywheel bit?

                            #480179
                            Neil Wyatt
                            Moderator
                              @neilwyatt

                              Final thought,

                              Various multi-cylinder designs work without flywheels, anything will rotate continuously if it doesn't have dead spots.

                              The real function of the flywheel is to smooth the motion, this is why water power was still preferred to steam for spinning yarn in the early days and also what led to the invention of the governor.

                              Mine and feed pumps have no need for smooth, constant delivery of power so don't have flywheels.

                              What about steam locomotives? They don't have flywheels but use the massive momentum of the whole machine to smooth their motion. There were some notoriously unbalanced locos that used to sway or hammer the tracks due to poor balance.

                              Much lighter steam cars had flywheels, as did road locomotives that usually had to function as stationary sources of power. Steam wag(g)ons were bigger and heavier and usually had multi-cylinder engines.

                              The real answer, I suspect, is that adding a reciprocating mass (a) creates challenges in tuning it to match different engine speeds and (b) requires a level of extra complexity that could be used to add a second set of cylinders.

                              Neil

                              #480180
                              Joseph Noci 1
                              Participant
                                @josephnoci1
                                Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/06/2020 10:35:15:

                                Posted by John Haine on 16/06/2020 10:23:17:

                                Flywheels store kinetic energy, wouldn't a pendulum be better?

                                How about a pendulum that swings right round into a complete circle.

                                We could call it a pendwheel

                                Neil

                                Or an angularly-disadvantaged flywheel..

                                #480181
                                Neil Wyatt
                                Moderator
                                  @neilwyatt

                                  Really final thought…

                                  Early steam pumps, did use a reciprocating mass, in the form of a heavy beam.

                                  Neil

                                  #480182
                                  Joseph Noci 1
                                  Participant
                                    @josephnoci1
                                    Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/06/2020 10:43:34:

                                    Final thought,

                                    Various multi-cylinder designs work without flywheels, anything will rotate continuously if it doesn't have dead spots.

                                    The real function of the flywheel is to smooth the motion, this is why water power was still preferred to steam for spinning yarn in the early days and also what led to the invention of the governor.

                                    Mine and feed pumps have no need for smooth, constant delivery of power so don't have flywheels.

                                    What about steam locomotives? They don't have flywheels but use the massive momentum of the whole machine to smooth their motion. There were some notoriously unbalanced locos that used to sway or hammer the tracks due to poor balance.

                                    Much lighter steam cars had flywheels, as did road locomotives that usually had to function as stationary sources of power. Steam wag(g)ons were bigger and heavier and usually had multi-cylinder engines.

                                    The real answer, I suspect, is that adding a reciprocating mass (a) creates challenges in tuning it to match different engine speeds and (b) requires a level of extra complexity that could be used to add a second set of cylinders.

                                    Neil

                                    Still do not agree!

                                    They certainly have flywheels! The Linear motion is converted to rotary by the very wheel on which the loco runs, and so as the loco moves, its massive momentum forces the wheel to turn, forcing the crank to move…The loco, its, weight and momentum, and the coupled rotary to linear motion is precisely what a flywheel is, no?

                                    Joe

                                    #480185
                                    JasonB
                                    Moderator
                                      @jasonb

                                      So if you did want a crank and TDC/BDC this is how I saw the geared weights working.

                                      20200616_104814[1].jpg

                                      The double acting piston would connect to a crank and then to a crankshaft. large gear on the crankshaft would drive smaller gear at 2:1 and weight suspended from smaller gear. on the two power strokes from 45deg to 135deg and 225 to 315 the weight would be lifted. Before the piston gets to TDC or BDC the weight will start to drop and by driving back through the gears will pull the crank over BDC & TDC.

                                      Saw or file could be driven by a second crank off the shaft or linked to the piston one.

                                      That's how I see it working but the saw/filer may jump about a bit as the weight goe sup and down

                                       

                                      Edited By JasonB on 16/06/2020 10:55:49

                                      #480186
                                      Martin Kyte
                                      Participant
                                        @martinkyte99762
                                        Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/06/2020 10:43:34:

                                        Final thought,

                                        this is why water power was still preferred to steam for spinning yarn in the early days and also what led to the invention of the governor.

                                        Neil

                                        ? Not because water was free and steam cost coal then. I understood that early installations used steam engines to pump water back up hill in times of drought. Easy to install too as all the drive machinery from water wheel upwards was allready in place.

                                        Just a comment.

                                        regards Martin

                                        #480187
                                        Joseph Noci 1
                                        Participant
                                          @josephnoci1
                                          Posted by JasonB on 16/06/2020 10:33:21:

                                          2nd one down is what you need

                                          Posts crossed, I don't see the need for a crank on a filing or sawing machine and like above shows TDC would be when piston is at one end of stroke, BDC at other

                                          Edited By JasonB on 16/06/2020 10:40:54

                                          As I said, that is a double acting cylinder with NO CRANK. Obviously such a mechanism works fine – the motion is generated linearly from the start – there is in fact no TDC or BDC – the motion changes direction when the appropriate valve is actuated.

                                          If PGK drops the thought of a crank in his mechanism and uses a double acting cylinder, then , well, nothing to discuss..

                                          #480194
                                          doubletop
                                          Participant
                                            @doubletop
                                            Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 16/06/2020 10:43:08:

                                            Posted by Doubletop on 16/06/2020 10:26:04:

                                            Try Stewart Harts Dake engine. No flywheel required at all. He has included one but during the build he confirmed it would run without one

                                            Stewart Hart Dake engine

                                             

                                            Pete

                                            Unfortunately those posts are 2012 era, and none of the associated videos of operation seem to be around any more – however, all articles I come across with google seem to show a flywheel as part of the thing – even when masquerading as a 'pulley'…Also could not find anywhere where in Mr Hart's post where he mentions the no flywheel bit?

                                             

                                            The links worked for me. try this. As I said when Stewart was building it he tried it without a flywheel and it worked fine

                                             

                                             

                                            Edited By Doubletop on 16/06/2020 11:20:42

                                            #480198
                                            Hopper
                                            Participant
                                              @hopper

                                              Surely you dont want a reciprocating weight because it takes energy to slow it down, stop it and then reverse its direction at the end of each stroke? Sounds horribly low efficiency doesnt it, like Neil's beam engine?

                                              Edited By Hopper on 16/06/2020 11:22:53

                                              #480200
                                              doubletop
                                              Participant
                                                @doubletop

                                                I found the post on HMEM where I suggested to Stewart that he try it without a flywheel

                                                HMEM Dake thread

                                                A few posts later he says " Just spent an hour in the shed tweeking things easing tight spots etc, got it running far nicer now, it runs great without the flywheel forward and reverse, its not a fast running engine, but it throttles down to about 2 psi which supprised me."

                                                Pete

                                                #480208
                                                Bazyle
                                                Participant
                                                  @bazyle

                                                  The 'free engine gassifier' from about the '80s used opposed pistons running against a sealed chamber ie using compressed gass to store the energy and then use it to power the compression stroke.

                                                  The governor was invented for regulating windmills long before Watt sneekily patented it and severely restricted the progression of the art of grinding flour as he did with the crank which held back steam engine development by a decade.

                                                  #480215
                                                  JasonB
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @jasonb

                                                    Had to give it a try, sticking with a single acting engine my Forrest fitted the bill as it had an overhanging crankshaft so whipped off the flywheel and knocked up a bodgers crank and weight, it needed Neil's "spring" to help it over ctr but works. I'm sure some fine tuning of crank angles and valve timing would get things smoother not to mention a less "jumpy" weight.

                                                    #480227
                                                    Robert Atkinson 2
                                                    Participant
                                                      @robertatkinson2

                                                      That is still a flywheel, all be it a very out of balance one. It's rotating not reciprocating. Hopper has most of the story with the energy required. the big isse is that a recoprocating mas stops. I horizontal all the inertial energy is wasted stopping it again. If vetical there is only potenial energy which can only be recovered on the way down.

                                                      in either case nergy is only stored for hlf the stroke.

                                                      Any egnge with a crankshaft has a flywheel – the crank. They only need a extra flywheel if the crank isn't big enough.

                                                      Robert G8RPI

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