Motor for Chester Champion Mill

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Motor for Chester Champion Mill

This topic has 37 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 14 September 2017 at 10:27 by Ian S C.

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11 September 2017 at 20:27 #316554
Mark Lawson 1
Participant
@marklawson1
Hi Chaps, I have a Chester Champion 16 for around 2 years I have managed to burn out x3 motors I don’t really know what has caused the motors to fail as I don’t really push the machine very hard. The second motor failed while I was taking thin cuts off a piece of aluminium as did the third with a 4mm end mill as soon as the motor failed I opened the top casing the motor was only warm to the touch, I mainly mill alloy and occasionally brass I only ever take small cuts of no more than .5mm and never use end mills larger than 13mm mainly 6,8 and 10mm.

The first x2 motors came from Chester these were 135mm long the third motor came from another company this was 165mm long and did last longer than the originals this machine is not in constant use the reason I am posting this thread is to ask if anybody knows of any other suppliers of motor that would bolt straight to my mill without any modifications or would it be a good idea to have the motor rewound, has anybody else had similar problems with this type of mill.

I now know about adding a fan to aid cooling.
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11 September 2017 at 20:27 #33073
Mark Lawson 1
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@marklawson1
11 September 2017 at 20:54 #316555
larry Phelan
Participant
@larryphelan54019
Something very wrong if you burn out 3 motors in that time.Are you sure you have the right voltage,nothing binding ?

Did Chester not think it was a bit odd? I have a Lux mill and a Craftsman lathe,both get a fair bit of use,but the motors have never given trouble.

Not much point in having the motor rewound until you find out what the problem is. One motor,maybe,but Three ???

Would like to hear other members views.
11 September 2017 at 21:00 #316557
Brian Sweeting 2
Participant
@briansweeting2
Can't help wondering about the cause of your motor failures, reading back through some of your posts it appears that your lathe motor had some problems too.

It might be worthwhile taking the failed motor to a rewind company and ask for a post mortem report on it.

Do you have stable power supply to your workshop?
11 September 2017 at 21:00 #316558
Brian Sweeting 2
Participant
@briansweeting2
double post

Edited By Brian Sweeting on 11/09/2017 21:01:28
11 September 2017 at 21:15 #316561
Nick_G
Participant
@nick_g
Posted by Brian Sweeting on 11/09/2017 21:00:49:

Do you have stable power supply to your workshop?

.

That was going to be my question.

There is a supplier that told me issues arose on some machines due the the design of older style control boards that under fluctuating supply could end up killing the motor.

He gave one of the prime locations as those with machines installed in a rural area. – Having said that my mother lives in a built up area and her voltage is all over the place.

Nick
11 September 2017 at 22:00 #316572
Mark Lawson 1
Participant
@marklawson1
Larry, yes it’s the right voltage and no there is nothing binding, Chester did replace one motor under warranty this was after a mere 6 months the second failed just after the warranty ran out the last motor has lasted over 1 year this is the longer version, what I have noticed is that the RPM did start to slow a little but only by about 50 RPM at a time in all about 2-300 RPM over a 12 month period.

Brian, I know you mean well but my lathe is about 6 years old and the problem I had with the lathe motor was simply solved by cleaning out the motor it hasn’t missed a beat since.

Yes I do have stable power I live in a built up area and taking the motor to a rewind company may be the best route along with fitting a fan on top of the motor housing.
12 September 2017 at 11:31 #316654
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
If rewinding costs as much in UK as it does in New Zealand, you could buy 2 or 3 new motors for the price. What sort of motor is it, AC, DC, 1Ph, or 3Ph. What ever, you need to find out why.

Ian S C
12 September 2017 at 11:40 #316657
Gordon Tarling
Participant
@gordontarling37126
If the motor that burnt out was only warm to the touch, then a cooling fan isn't going to help much. The motors which have burnt out – do they smell burnt? My suspicions are that the control board may have a fault of some kind, but proving this is another matter, as replacements won't be cheap.
12 September 2017 at 12:11 #316666
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Just a suggestion. When operating the mill Mark, do you always minimise the speed before switching on and off? Quite a few people have had trouble due to putting full power straight on the motor rather than bringing it up to speed with the potentiometer. (May not be your problem because not minimising speed is more likely to stress the control board electronics than the motor.)

I suppose you may have been VERY unlucky, but having 3 motors fail suggests something odd is going on. Dirt, damp, overheating, or excessive volts damaging the windings. Do you have anything like a welder or VFD that could be putting voltage spikes into the mill, perhaps something is inadvertently using the mill as an earth? If that's the case, the mill motor's insulation is damaged when you're not using it, and only fails much later.

Dave
12 September 2017 at 12:25 #316669
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Do you run the mill slow for long periods?

Neil
12 September 2017 at 13:21 #316685
Kevin Bennett
Participant
@kevinbennett25223
Hi I have had my Chester Champion mill for 21 years I did put a better fan on the motor but only because it was rubbing and I damaged a fin other than that it is ok .

soon it will be up for grabs as a restore project for someone as I am getting a sieg sx3 when they are delivered to ARC.

Kevin
12 September 2017 at 20:49 #316752
larry Phelan
Participant
@larryphelan54019
This may not be relevant,but two points mentioned there rang a bell with me,

1 I have a wood lathe whose speeds are controlled by a leaver type switch in steps,and the directions state to start and stop in steps, never to take off at full speed ! Worth checking ?.

2 Since I moved to the sticks,I had to buy a converter to run my planer and spindle moulder,both 3 ph. While it does that,I notice a difference between true 3ph,which I had in Dublin,and my converter 3ph. I believe this is normal and since it causes no problems,I live with it. I have never checked my voltage supply,might be no harm to do so.

Since none of my machines have control boards,except the wood lathe,I,m not too well up on them,but it,s a very interesting subject since more and more stuff seems to be going that way.
12 September 2017 at 22:09 #316768
Mark Lawson 1
Participant
@marklawson1
First of all chaps thanks for all your responses which I will answer first then add my research last.

Ian S C, The motor is a single phase AC induction motor 600W, 240V, 3.6A, 1400rpm, 50Hz E

Gordon Tarling, only the first motor burnt out this left a terrible mess inside the casing, the second and third motors didn’t burn out as such but both suffered the same problem in that over a period of months lost about 200rpm slowly then whilst running the machine all of a sudden the speed dropped from 1200rpm to about 10rpm, regardless of what position the potentiometer was positioned speed would not alter up or down.

Silly old duffer, I always use the potentiometer I never start or stop the machine all of a sudden speed is always reduced then stopped, dirt and damp can’t be the problem none of my other tools rust nor have the beads on the mill, lathe or my small pillar drill don’t have any welding gear apart from gas for silver soldering.

Neil, I don’t always run the motor flat out and have found out that the cooling on these motors is not good and al low speeds don’t exist.

Larry, I never take off at full speed nor stop at full speed, speed is increased and decreased fromt the soft start speed back to the soft start speed.

I don’t think this is a control board problem after the second motor failed I replaced with the longer third motor and everything worked fine until last week after a year of use if it was the controle board then the machine still wouldn’t have worked or one would have thought would have failed sooner.

Searching the forum did throw up others who have had a similar problem one two statements seem to make sense; “ these motors fail because of poor quality start capacitors or a dodgy centrifugal switch” “either the start capacitor, centrifugal switch or the fan unit not providing enough cooling” I really do think the problem is with the Chinese motor when I can I think I will take them to an electric motor rewind company if the problem is start capacitors or a dodgy centrifugal switch then it may not be too expensive to repair better yet to replace with a European made motor as I would bet that the Chinese motor is a clone and a poor one at that.
12 September 2017 at 22:17 #316771
duncan webster 1
Participant
@duncanwebster1
Single phase AC induction motor with a speed controller? That's unusual

Edited By duncan webster on 12/09/2017 22:17:16
12 September 2017 at 22:17 #316772
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
I think you will find that if if has a pot on it, then the motor is permanent magnet
600W DC motor.

And as such has no caps or centrifugal switches
13 September 2017 at 00:30 #316784
duncan webster 1
Participant
@duncanwebster1
this problem comes up time and again on the forum, burned out motors and control boards.

Come on Neil, time for an article in MEW on how to replace the horrible DC motor on your Chinese mill or lathe with a three phase squirrel cage VFD drive motor
13 September 2017 at 08:07 #316788
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
article in MEW on how to replace the horrible DC motor on your Chinese mill…

Or one on why not to buy machines with these cheap motor/control board type machines because it will likely be a case of (for the motor/control of board) of buy cheap, buy twice… or thrice …or…

There must have been more than enough failures to demonstrate the poor quality of design, sizing or whatever.
13 September 2017 at 11:02 #316804
Nick_G
Participant
@nick_g
Posted by not done it yet on 13/09/2017 08:07:52:

article in MEW on how to replace the horrible DC motor on your Chinese mill…

Or one on why not to buy machines with these cheap motor/control board type machines because it will likely be a case of (for the motor/control of board) of buy cheap, buy twice… or thrice …or…

There must have been more than enough failures to demonstrate the poor quality of design, sizing or whatever.

.

It should be mentioned that all SEEMINGLY identical machines that come from the far east are not created equal. Even from the same factory.

Different importers specify different specifications other that just the colour of the paint job. – One important variation is that some are distributed with brushed DC motors, while others use the more advanced brushless motors that are more expensive. I may be wrong but I think they also require a different controller.

So the price variation we see as consumers is very often not a distributor being greedy and wanting a bigger piece of your pie. It's that they have laid out more for their specification and stock.

Nick
13 September 2017 at 11:05 #316805
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Posted by not done it yet on 13/09/2017 08:07:52:

article in MEW on how to replace the horrible DC motor on your Chinese mill…

Or one on why not to buy machines with these cheap motor/control board type machines because it will likely be a case of (for the motor/control of board) of buy cheap, buy twice… or thrice …or…

There must have been more than enough failures to demonstrate the poor quality of design, sizing or whatever.

.

It's already been addressed by the introduction of the brushless motor with shed loads of safety features to prevent burnout.

But hey guess what the deep pocketed tight arsed punters reckon its too expensive and so insist on buying the older generation DC package where they have had to cut corners to meet a price.
13 September 2017 at 11:12 #316806
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
So the price variation we see as consumers is very often not a distributor being greedy

Sorry, but you clearly missed my point. I did not even suggest that distributors or dealers were being greedy. Even they cannot give a decent warranty period for the motor/control board for fear of excessive claims.

Of course, some dealers are better than others and retain spares at reasonable prices, but it makes no difference to the fact that a too high proportion of these machines were never truly fit for purpose.
13 September 2017 at 11:12 #316807
John Rudd
Participant
@johnrudd16576
Basically there are three different species of variable speed drive train for mills/lathes.

The basic pm motor with its troublesome brushes, usually accompanied by a thyristor based speed controller, of Chinese origin or the slightly more reliable KB controller from the States. This drivetrain is probably the cheapest entry level….for smallish mills and lathes, although my lathe had a 1.5kw dc motor fitted!

Then we are on to brushless motors, multiphase with Hall devices for feedback, using a dedicated control board. More expensive than the dc motor, but more powerful for just about the same physical size, can be found on numeroys Sieg machines

Finally, the usual industry standard 3 phase motor with a vfd, using a larger motor, generally found on bigger lathes..
13 September 2017 at 11:29 #316812
larry Phelan
Participant
@larryphelan54019
Like Duncan,I thought it was a bit odd to hear of an AC induction motor with a controller.

Both my lathe and my mill have simple induction motors [Chinese],as has my bandsaw. Touch wood,none of them have given any trouble [so far !! ] Must be going about 12/14 years now.

Would it be possible to simply change the motor type? Wishful thinking perhaps !.
13 September 2017 at 11:29 #316814
Nick_G
Participant
@nick_g
Posted by not done it yet on 13/09/2017 11:12:20:

So the price variation we see as consumers is very often not a distributor being greedy

Sorry, but you clearly missed my point. I did not even suggest that distributors or dealers were being greedy. Even they cannot give a decent warranty period for the motor/control board for fear of excessive claims.

Of course, some dealers are better than others and retain spares at reasonable prices, but it makes no difference to the fact that a too high proportion of these machines were never truly fit for purpose.

.

I didn't miss your point.

The remark you chose to quote was an extension of my personal opinion in addition to my reply to you.. (and as it seems sort of ish backed up by JS in the next post)

Technology moves forward to address issues and problems. Soon brushed DC motors on machine tools will be a distant memory. e.g. In the same way drum brakes are no longer fitted to cars.

Having said all that Jason has had 2 brushed motor machines that have operated flawlessly for quite a number of years now and still to the best of my knowledge still are. (think he replaced brushes on his lathe once) And he probably uses his machines more in a month than most of us do in a whole year. Add to that he builds quite large models so it's not as if he is 'babying' them.

Nick
13 September 2017 at 11:47 #316817
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Mark Lawson 1 on 12/09/2017 22:09:54:

…

Ian S C, The motor is a single phase AC induction motor 600W, 240V, 3.6A, 1400rpm, 50Hz E

…

Searching the forum did throw up others who have had a similar problem one two statements seem to make sense; “ these motors fail because of poor quality start capacitors or a dodgy centrifugal switch” “either the start capacitor, centrifugal switch or the fan unit not providing enough cooling”

I really do think the problem is with the Chinese motor …

Hi Mark,

Looking for anything unusual that might explain your problem, the statement that the mill is fitted with a single phase AC Induction motor is odd. Can you confirm that please? If true, it means the motor and control board on your mill are unusual, which may be a clue. Are you able to post a photograph of the motor? (And if you incorrectly think it's an AC motor, you won't have checked the brushes…)

Secondly, I don't see how a dodgy capacitor and/or centrifugal switch explain your symptoms. Perhaps an expert will comment, but I associate both with failure to start, or in the case of a jammed switch, overheating. That doesn't seem to fit with a motor that starts, initially loses 200rpm, and then runs at a maximum of 10rpm.

It's too early to blame the motor because it's Chinese. Possibly you've been caught by counterfeit motors, or cheap nasty clones, but don't underestimate Chinese industry – they've been able to make decent motors for donkey's years. It would be useful to know what you use the mill for and how much work it does in an average week. (There's a big difference between a couple of hours per week gently milling Aluminium, and 24×7 piecework on Stainless!) Can you think of anything odd about your workshop or household – for instance, do the house lights ever fail.

Don't be too disheartened: the worst that can happen is you replace the motor with a 3-phase type and a VFD. Spending the dosh will be painful, but the improvement acceptable.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/09/2017 11:48:02
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