Single phase speed control – VFD?

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Single phase speed control – VFD?

This topic has 22 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 22 September 2023 at 19:12 by Robert Atkinson 2.

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21 September 2023 at 19:43 #660959
KenL
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@kenl
Hi All

I'm sure this subject must already be covered somewhere but can I find it????

Basically what I want to do is reduce the speed of a recently acquired bandsaw

It's fitted with a small 0.7kw 2 pole single phase motor and runs far too fast (even on slow speed) for cutting mild steel. There doesn't appear to be a start capacitor fitted and a mechanical solution or change of motor would be quite difficult.

Looking on Google and U-tube it appears that it should be possible to run a single phase motor from a 220v 3 phase output VFD by splitting the start/run windings across the three output phases. Has anyone tried this and can offer some advice?
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21 September 2023 at 19:43 #32357
KenL
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@kenl
21 September 2023 at 20:10 #660965
Clive Foster
Participant
@clivefoster55965
KenL

Theoretically it might be possible to start a single phase motor by connecting one phase from a three phase inverter to the main winding and another to the start winding. This will give a 120° phase shift between start and run plus whatever "natural" phase shift is built into the motor winding arrangements.

Sounds to me that it would be way too much and you'd need to put a capacitor or inductor in series with the start winding to adjust things to something more reasonable.

Oversimplifying things. Some phase shift between start and run windings is needed to generate a rotating field in a stationary single phase motor so it will run. Too much shift will limit how fast the motor can go with the start winding energised so the main winding won't take over and accelerate the motor up to speed. Too little phase shift and starting torque will be impractically small.

Once running the thing ought to keep going on the main winding fed by one of the VFD phases.

In practice a party trick with things set-up just so to do a demo. I imagine the VFD is going to be seriously unhappy at start-up time with one output floating and wildly different loadings on the other two let alone dropping onto one phase once all is going.

This style of idea has been floating around almost as long as VFDs have been around. To the best of my knowledge no one has made a commercial product of this type but I'd be unsurprised to discover that special, dedicated, motor / VFD pairs haven't been made for some applications. It would appear to be contender for things like multi-speed washing machine drives.

Clive

Clive
21 September 2023 at 20:38 #660969
Robert Atkinson 2
Participant
@robertatkinson2
You can get single phase VFDs but they are uncommon. This makes them relatively expensive. Most are not suitable for capacitor or centrifugal start motors. Proper details of the motor would be required before anything else can be decided. Are you sure it's not a universal (brushed) motor? that would open up a lot of possibilities. They are common on machines with the motor integrated into them.
Reducing the speed will also reduce the available power.
Unless it is a particuarly special machine it's probably not worth the effort.
Why can't you change the motor to a 3 phase one? As I note above if it's highly integrated it may be a universal.
Just because someone on on the internet says you can use a 3 phse one does not make it so. The output would be severly inbalanced and would, or should trip the protections.

Robert.
21 September 2023 at 21:54 #660974
Martin Cargill
Participant
@martincargill50290
I had a similar, but not the same problem, with my Arboga pillar drill. I don't have three phase power and the motor was two speed, three phase. The two speed motor made fitting an invertor drive difficult. I decided to fit a single phase motor but discovered that the existing motor has a shaft about a foot long with a gear machined on the end.

Problem was solved by swapping the existing motor fan for a pulley and then adding a single phase motor to drive the pulley. The new single phase motor now drives the machine using the old motor as a kind of layshaft.

I got the idea from work where we used a similar trick to drive oil pumps with failed bespoke motors with replacement standard motors.

You could possibly do the same but use an invertor powered three phase motor to drive your single phase motor.

Martin
21 September 2023 at 21:58 #660975
KenL
Participant
@kenl
Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 21/09/2023 20:38:52:

Just because someone on on the internet says you can use a 3 phse one does not make it so. The output would be severly inbalanced and would, or should trip the protections.

Robert.

Precisely my reason for posting here – thanks for your contribution, well informed advice is often advisable when considering propositions from sources such as U-tube.

I haven't yet dismantled the motor so can't be certain of its construction but it doesn't sound like a brush motor and although it's only what I would describe as partially integrated (custom flange fitted) it would involve quite a lot of work to fit a different unit.

I've ordered a bimetal blade to try which should withstand a higher cutting speed so I'll see how that performs and then investigate the motor more closely if needs be.

Any further observations would be welcome.

KenL
21 September 2023 at 23:07 #660984
John Doe 2
Participant
@johndoe2
Just thinking out loud, and I don't have much motor knowledge, but would a 240V mains lighting dimmer work on a single phase motor, once it had started ? (probably have to be a pro theater lighting dimmer to handle a 750W load).

How do 240VAC domestic cooling fans with, say, three fixed speeds work ? Different, selectable windings in the same motor, or some electronics?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 21/09/2023 23:11:19
22 September 2023 at 04:18 #660996
Colin Whittaker
Participant
@colinwhittaker20544
VFDs are (usually) used on induction motors. A single phase induction motor needs a phasing capacitor and a second set of windings. (O.K. a shaded pole motor doesn't but that only gets used on low power applications.) But you don't have a phasing capacitor!

So I think you have a universal motor with commutator and series field windings. A dimmer control should slow things down for you while generating significant RF interference in the locality for anyone still using an AM radio.

I guess you have a high speed wood saw.

Good luck, Colin
22 September 2023 at 06:19 #660999
Speedy Builder5
Participant
@speedybuilder5
Adding extra pulleys is the way this guy attacked it – Pulley mods

Question- would a stepper motor be a suitable replacement ? Yes, it may be a bit "lumpy" at slow speeds, but would that matter ??
22 September 2023 at 07:26 #661002
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
Posted by John Doe 2 on 21/09/2023 23:07:51:

Just thinking out loud, and I don't have much motor knowledge, but would a 240V mains lighting dimmer work on a single phase motor, once it had started ? (probably have to be a pro theater lighting dimmer to handle a 750W load).

How do 240VAC domestic cooling fans with, say, three fixed speeds work ? Different, selectable windings in the same motor, or some electronics?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 21/09/2023 23:11:19

Nope. Dimmers effectively reduce the voltage applied to the lighting (or any other – even things like 3kW immersion heaters, for instance). The frequency is not altered and an induction motor is frequency controlled for its rotational speed.
22 September 2023 at 09:05 #661011
John Haine
Participant
@johnhaine32865
Your existing motor is probably a split-phase type where the start winding has a considerably higher resistance than the run winding, so the current in it leads in phase to provide some directional starting torque. These motors often don't switch out the start winding, I guess the induced voltage in it once the motor is running reduces the current anyway so it doesn't get too hot. I briefly owned a bandsaw driven my one of these.

Fans in cooker hoods are driven by induction torque motors, which have a relatively high resistance rotor giving highest torque when stalled. You can speed control these by varying the drive voltage, they are very inefficient. As NDIY says you can't generally vary the speed of an induction motor by changing its drive voltage, only frequency.

A stepper motor powerful enough to drive a bandsaw would be expensive and incredibly noisy.

I'm afraid that you are stuck with the current motor if you can't physically change it. It's just possible that you might be able to find a 3-phase unit with the same basic frame and fit the end-plate, of even just transfer the stator and its windings (the rotor won't know if it's single or 3 phase). Or use the end plate to adapt a DC motor.
22 September 2023 at 10:10 #661021
John Doe 2
Participant
@johndoe2
Posted by not done it yet on 22/09/2023 07:26:55

Nope. Dimmers effectively reduce the voltage applied to the lighting (or any other – even things like 3kW immersion heaters, for instance). The frequency is not altered and an induction motor is frequency controlled for its rotational speed.

Ah yes, I forgot about the frequency.

So how do simple domestic fans – the reciprocating type you have on the office desk – change speeds? Do they have electronics – or just a plain three way switch? How do they achieve three different speeds with an AC motor running on a fixed AC frequency ? The motor in my fan looks like a shaded pole motor – no commutator or brushes. Since the motor – directly connected to the fan – is changing speed, it cannot be staying in step with the mains frequency.

Would a single phase VFD work for this bandsaw, (or a 3Ph VFD, with two phases feeding dummy loads) ?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 22/09/2023 10:21:05
22 September 2023 at 10:26 #661026
Macolm
Participant
@macolm
RE cooker hoods etc. Induction motors driving fans are a special case. Because the drag of the fan is proportional to speed squared, it falls off rapidly as speed reduces. Within a range of "slip v torque" of the motor characteristic, reducing the voltage does indeed allow a range of speed control..

This obviously does not apply to other types of load, where for more than a certain drag, the motor will stall (or not start).
22 September 2023 at 11:56 #661045
Ian Parkin
Participant
@ianparkin39383
Kenl

if you want to try a single phase inverter i have a few secondhand units in as new condition
22 September 2023 at 12:57 #661054
Robert Atkinson 2
Participant
@robertatkinson2
Hmm, those appear to be 3 Phase output, single phase input VFDs. The OP needs a single phase OUTPUT VFD.
22 September 2023 at 13:03 #661059
Ian Parkin
Participant
@ianparkin39383
They are both single in and single out
22 September 2023 at 13:28 #661062
duncan webster 1
Participant
@duncanwebster1
Running significantly slow will reduce the effect of the cooling fan, watch out for overheating
22 September 2023 at 13:37 #661064
KenL
Participant
@kenl
Many thanks for that offer Ian.

Maybe you could message me with a price?

In the meantime the bimetal blade has arrived and performs much better than the carbon ones at the lowest speed. Only time will tell if these blades last a reasonable amount of time, they are substantially more expensive than the standard metal cutting blade supplied by the manufacturer of the saw (Elu/Dewalt).
22 September 2023 at 16:05 #661078
Clock polisher
Participant
@clockpolisher
I had a similar problem and wanted to control the speed of a lathe motor in as simple and inexpensive way as possible.

I bought one of those very cheap Pulse Width Modulator units from Amazon, it's rated at 230v input and 4000w output and cost about £5.

Wired a 13 amp plug and lead into the input and and a 13 amp socket into the output . The unit worked flawlessly, controlling the speed of the motor with no noticeable loss of torque, as it doesn't drop the voltage just the frequency.

I'm currently using it on a Sealey bench grinder for delicate tasks, just slow it down to tick over and it's fine.

David
22 September 2023 at 16:58 #661089
Ian P
Participant
@ianp
Posted by Clock polisher on 22/09/2023 16:05:45:

I had a similar problem and wanted to control the speed of a lathe motor in as simple and inexpensive way as possible.

I bought one of those very cheap Pulse Width Modulator units from Amazon, it's rated at 230v input and 4000w output and cost about £5.

Wired a 13 amp plug and lead into the input and and a 13 amp socket into the output . The unit worked flawlessly, controlling the speed of the motor with no noticeable loss of torque, as it doesn't drop the voltage just the frequency.

I'm currently using it on a Sealey bench grinder for delicate tasks, just slow it down to tick over and it's fine.

David

I am very curious as to how a variable frequency 4Kw device can be made and sold at £5 and work flawlessly on (two different) motors.

What are the type of motors is it controlling?

Ian P
22 September 2023 at 17:20 #661093
Clock polisher
Participant
@clockpolisher
Ian,

I don't think it actually controls the frequency, it just chops the electricity up into variable length pulses.

I had it on a Unimat SL lathe with original 90w motor first, then same lathe with a sewing machine motor.

Now it's on a Sealey BG150WL bench grinder.

All motors 230/240 vac single phase.

I don't want to get into where and by whom, and under what conditions, it was made.

David
22 September 2023 at 18:37 #661109
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Clock polisher on 22/09/2023 17:20:07:

…

I don't think it actually controls the frequency, it just chops the electricity up into variable length pulses.

I had it on a Unimat SL lathe with original 90w motor first, then same lathe with a sewing machine motor.

Now it's on a Sealey BG150WL bench grinder.

All motors 230/240 vac single phase.

…

I'm afraid Clock Polisher's positive experience doesn't prove that PWM can speed control all types of single-phase motor. Might be worth trying though.

Have I mentioned before how much I hate single-phase motors? Only about 500 times! One reason I dislike the beasts is the number of different ways clever chaps have come up with of making them spin, none of which are entirely satisfactory, and many truly horrid compromises. Murky engineering, making it hard to say what will work or not.

Like as not both motors on Clock Polisher's Unimat were the Universal type. These have brushes, run on AC or DC, and can be speed controlled with a rheostat or PWM driver. As their efficiency is low, it's unusual for them to be much bigger than 250W. But for intermittent low and medium power work they do a good job – my old Black and Decker drill had one. Less common today because DC motors and PWM or Brushless do much the same and are more efficient.

No idea what sort of single-phase motor is on a Sealey BG150WL bench grinder: might be a Universal too.

Moving away from Clock Polisher's good luck, the assumption that frequency has to be altered to speed control an induction motor isn't quite true. For example:
- A Triac chops a proportion of an AC waveform off, so the motor gets shorter pulses at 50Hz. It turns, but with reduced power, such that any load partially brakes the motor and it loses speed. Is this yuk? Yes!!!
- Another way of speed-controlling a single-phase motor is to arrange the windings so that the phase between them is altered by adding capacitors or tapping into the inductance. Altering the phase between windings causes a loaded motor to slip, – it's like controlling the speed of a car by slipping the clutch. Again, not efficient, and mostly found on constant load motors like fans. Is this type yuk too? Yes!!!
That said, these methods allow some single-phase motors to satisfy a few useful speed control requirements. I might think the methods are all bodges, but hey if it works, why not?

By far the best way to speed control a single-phase motor is not to. Instead speed control the output with pulleys or a gearbox.

So, though electronically speed controlling single-phase motors is possible, it depends on the type of motor – some will, some won't, and even if it does work results are likely to disappoint. Three-phase motors with VFDs are in a different league – much better.

Is the band-saw designed for woodwork? Metal is fussier than wood and prefers lower speeds.

Dave
22 September 2023 at 19:12 #661113
Robert Atkinson 2
Participant
@robertatkinson2
These supposed "PWM" controllers like this one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/DollaTek-Control-Controller-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B07F9L5557/ref=sr_1_5?crid=T2GZU4OP4J8F

Are not PWM they are phase angle controllers. They control the average power. At anything over 50% the peak voltage will be the same as the peak mains voltage. They are OK for heaters, incandescent lamps and universal motors. They will work, as previously noted, with fans due to their load charactistics.
The grinder is probably usable due to it's large inertia. I bet you have to staart it ax maximum and then bring the speed down.
These items are components, not equipment and need enclosures, fuses, filters etc. In thery they also need to be tested for safety and EMC. I can say for certain thet the one linked to will not pass EMC testing.

There are also more "packaged" versions like :

But it clearly does not meet UK safety standards and the plug is unsafe.

Robert.
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