Identifying a webcam module

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Identifying a webcam module

This topic has 28 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 14 November 2022 at 13:27 by Michael Gilligan.

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11 November 2022 at 09:47 #620593
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
For reasons that are irrelevant here; I wish to specifically identify the webcam module that is built-into a recently purchased ‘Visulaliser’

My Mac mini discloses the information that should be sufficient to just ‘look it up’ but my Google-fu is fading

Can anyone advise, please ?

MichaelG.

__________________________________

Camera ‘self-identifies’ on the Mac mini as:

d6fcg00271000a07:

Model ID: UVC Camera VendorID_3034 ProductID_22656

Unique ID: 0x21000000bda5880
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11 November 2022 at 09:47 #32297
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Help requested ….
11 November 2022 at 11:38 #620613
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
USB ID Database give Vendor ID 3034 as Toshiba Visual solutions – now known (since 2021) as TVS REGAZA . Owned since 2017 by the Chinese Hisense group.

Nearest product I can ID is

TCD2566BFG | Linear Image Sensors | Toshiba Electronic Devices & Storage Corporation | Asia-English (semicon-storage.com)
11 November 2022 at 11:54 #620617
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Many thanks for that, Peter … I will have a look

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ definitely the wrong product, I’m sorry to say

Mine is allegedly an 8Mp camera, capable of 4K

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 11:59:36
11 November 2022 at 13:58 #620633
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
They have a range

Color sensor | Toshiba Electronic Devices & Storage Corporation | Asia-English (semicon-storage.com)

but the device you have may be a prior generation and/or the device id you are seeing may be for the camera unit rather than the sensor chip.
11 November 2022 at 14:11 #620634
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Thanks again, Peter … much appreciated.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ as all of those are line sensors, not camera-style arrays, I am beginning to wonder if there is some misreporting going-on. The camera behaves correctly as a typical UVC device, like almost any modern webcam but with better resolution than most.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 14:19:51
11 November 2022 at 17:00 #620664
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
The format of the Vendor and Product IDs looks a bit too short and simple. If they mean anything it probably only refers to the circuitry not the the chip itself. There are lots of 8Mp 4K cameras and modules out there based on Sony IMX sensors. To find out what is in there I think you might need to get your screw driver out and have a closer look. I did suspect it might have come from Realtek. You´re not losing your Google-Fu, it´s just difficult to find out without taking a can opener to it. There are whole lists of Mac compatible cameras out there but the ID´s don´t fit any i can see. Another complication is ,is the visualiser equiped with auto focus?

Regards,

Dick H.

Edited By Dick H on 11/11/2022 17:01:31
11 November 2022 at 17:33 #620672
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Dick H on 11/11/2022 17:00:17:

The format of the Vendor and Product IDs looks a bit too short and simple. …

I agree.

On linux the go to command line utility for this is 'lsusb' and I see someone has written a version of it for Mac, installed with:
```
brew install mikhailai/misc/usbutils
```
Then try

lsusb –verbose

Other options described in the man page.

I expect Mac OS is the same as Linux in that an ordinary user may not have permission to see everything, in which case try:

sudo lsusb –verbose

Dave
11 November 2022 at 19:43 #620690
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Dick H on 11/11/2022 17:00:17:

[…]

Another complication is ,is the visualiser equiped with auto focus?

.

It is “focus free” … in the sense that it is fixed-focus but has massive depth of field … which in turn implies that it is a very small sensor with a very short focal-length lens attached in the optimum position.

To all appearances the whole contraption is essentially a simple UVC webcam mounted [together with some LEDs] on a folding stick … it just happens to have been done rather well.

As a microscopist; the performance of some of these devices astonishes me.

In absolute terms the resolution is low, but the big-screen impact is ‘Wow!”

MichaelG.
11 November 2022 at 19:51 #620691
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 11/11/2022 17:33:34:

Posted by Dick H on 11/11/2022 17:00:17:

The format of the Vendor and Product IDs looks a bit too short and simple. …

I agree.

On linux the go to command line utility for this is 'lsusb' and I see someone has written a version of it for Mac, installed with:
```
brew install mikhailai/misc/usbutils
```
Then try

lsusb –verbose

Other options described in the man page.

I expect Mac OS is the same as Linux in that an ordinary user may not have permission to see everything, in which case try:

sudo lsusb –verbose

Dave
.

I might give that a go, Dave

If I don’t want to risk the Mac, I could dig-out the RasPi 4

Life is a bit complicated at the moment, so I was hoping someone just knew an easy way of tracing the IDs.

… but if they don’t look right to you guys, that may be impossible.

Thanks to all

MichaelG.
11 November 2022 at 20:42 #620697
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
Sorry, the easy ways didn´t. There are quite a few modules out there which, particularly with your knowledge of microscopy optics, could probably be adapted to whatever you have in mind..

Best Wishes,

Dick H
11 November 2022 at 20:59 #620700
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 19:51:17:

[…]

I see someone has written a version of it for Mac, installed with:

brew install mikhailai/misc/usbutils

.

I fell at the first hurdle

zsh: command not found: brew

… so what, aside from basic competence, am I missing ?

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ Reading this :

https://setapp.com/how-to/install-homebrew-on-mac

makes me think that using the RasPi 4 might be easier and quicker.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 21:18:12
12 November 2022 at 13:18 #620760
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
[ UPDATE ]

We have something approximating progress

I have fired-up sudo lsusb –verbose on the RasPi_4 and it gives me masses of information … most of which I don’t understand.

Any advice regarding what to look-for would be welcome.

MichaelG.
12 November 2022 at 15:39 #620776
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Curiouser and Curiouser …

Having found that the Visualiser could be seen in lsub … I unplugged it from the RasPi and went back to playing with the Mac.

Chancing to look at ‘System Information’ again, I realised that it was still showing the same details for Camera … without the device being plugged-in. So I tried a little webcam, and nothing in the details changed !

I plugged the Visualiser in again, and still nothing changed.

So far as I am aware, there is no way of refreshing the ‘System Information’ display

… I thought it was supposed to change dynamically

I am was beginning to wonder if these details ~~are~~ were just some sort of ‘place-holder’

MichaelG.

.

[ Before anyone asks … I am using Ventura on an M1 Mac mini ]

.

Edit: __ I have tried re-booting, and have also discovered how to refresh the information

… a more methodical investigation is required !

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2022 15:55:54

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2022 15:57:10
12 November 2022 at 16:12 #620781
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 19:43:25:

Posted by Dick H on 11/11/2022 17:00:17:

[…]

Another complication is ,is the visualiser equiped with auto focus?

.

It is “focus free” … in the sense that it is fixed-focus but has massive depth of field … […]

.

Oops … Wrong again … The answer should be Yes

I have just observed it auto-focussing

MichaelG.
12 November 2022 at 17:51 #620788
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 20:59:39:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2022 19:51:17:

[…]

I see someone has written a version of it for Mac, installed with:

brew install mikhailai/misc/usbutils

.

I fell at the first hurdle

zsh: command not found: brew

… so what, aside from basic competence, am I missing ?

…

My bad, I assumed brew was a standard install on Apple and it's not. It comes with the 'Homebrew' package, which has to be installed first with, cut and paste:

/bin/bash -c "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/HEAD/install.sh)"

lsusb should always give a recognisable name from the Vendor ID, but what comes back from the Product ID depends on the supplier. Worth trying lsusb on both Raspberry and Apple in case one is more up-to-date.

lsusb on my Ubuntu system has both terse and informative examples:

Bus 002 Device 002: ID 05e3:0612 Genesys Logic, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 012: ID 10d6:1101 Actions Semiconductor Co., Ltd D-Wave 2GB MP4 Player / AK1025 MP3/MP4 Player

You can narrow the query to a particular device with:

lsusb -d 10d6:1101 –verbose

In the example 10d6 is the Vendor and 1101 is the Product. Try your camera's IDs.

Dave
12 November 2022 at 18:22 #620793
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Thanks, Dave

I remembered, from one of our previous discussions, that using brew involved a big download of X-Code stuff that I am never likely to use … the mini would handle it, but I don’t want to

It seemed much easier to set-up the RasPi [which I have been intending to do anyway]

After I have eaten, I will try narrowing the query as you suggest.

MichaelG.
12 November 2022 at 18:26 #620794
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
In hexadecimal Vendor_ID3034 seems to be 0BDA and the Product_ID22656 is 0x5880.

The Vendor_ID points to Realtek, no luck with the product ID.

Dick.
12 November 2022 at 19:42 #620805
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
That seems to be the case, Dick

… or have l got the syntax wrong ?

MichaelG.

.
12 November 2022 at 20:06 #620808
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
Seems to fit, or what are the chances? The problem is I couldn´t track down the exact product. The Realtek site is chaotic or it is a special for one customer…
12 November 2022 at 20:17 #620809
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
Google Realtek 5880 uvc. Seems to fit.
12 November 2022 at 20:23 #620810
Dick H
Participant
@dickh
Or Google USBVID_0BDA&PID_5880.
12 November 2022 at 20:51 #620813
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
That all seems to make sense, Dick

I can happily accept that the controller [if that’s the right word] is a Realtek device

… trouble is: what I really want to know is the exact identity of the sensor

My best guess is that it’s Sony IMX179 : **LINK**

http://www.camera-module.com/upfile/2021/10/20211007212945_257.pdf

… but it’s only a guess.

MichaelG.
14 November 2022 at 07:59 #621007
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2022 20:51:25:

That all seems to make sense, Dick

I can happily accept that the controller [if that’s the right word] is a Realtek device

… trouble is: what I really want to know is the exact identity of the sensor

My best guess is that it’s Sony IMX179 : **LINK**

http://www.camera-module.com/upfile/2021/10/20211007212945_257.pdf

… but it’s only a guess.

MichaelG.

.

… or perhaps a Sony IMX219PQ … for which this mind-bogglingly detailed datasheet is available:

**LINK**

https://www.opensourceinstruments.com/Electronics/Data/IMX219PQ.pdf

.

There are two main reasons for wishing to identify the bits inside:
- to give me a head’s start in selecting a ‘close-up’ lens for it
- to check my suspicion that, although fitted with a fancy blue lead, the thing will never achieve better than 480 Mbps … because it’s not USB3.0
.

It doesn’t much matter … I got the thing for a very reasonable price, and it performs sufficiently well to be useful.

MichaelG.
14 November 2022 at 09:10 #621012
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/11/2022 07:59:36:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2022 20:51:25:

That all seems to make sense, Dick

I can happily accept that the controller [if that’s the right word] is a Realtek device

… trouble is: what I really want to know is the exact identity of the sensor

…

…

There are two main reasons for wishing to identify the bits inside:
- to give me a head’s start in selecting a ‘close-up’ lens for it
- to check my suspicion that, although fitted with a fancy blue lead, the thing will never achieve better than 480 Mbps … because it’s not USB3.0
…
A step too far for the information provided by the USB data I fear! USB is an interface, and – so far as possible – it treats whatever is connected as a black-box. The black-box identifies the type of connection, mouse, camera, memory stick, or whatever, and the type of link.

Identifying as USB3.0 means the device is potentially capable of 480Mb/s, but the actual speed is negotiated and could be considerably lower.

The Vendor and Product ID pair identify a specific device but there's no guarantee the device contains particular hardware. All that's necessary for USB is that the hardware meets the interface specification. As the product ID might be needed to attach a device driver, it's not unreasonable to infer from it what the hardware might be, but USB is only part of the puzzle, and the hardware might be different. Analysing the device driver might reveal a list of actual sensors supported, and their available functions, but that's hard work.

Looking up the manufacturing documents is the best way to find out what's inside, but manufacturers rarely make it available. Opening the box and checking component part numbers might explain, but it's not unusual for these to be obfuscated.

Results vary with this sort of reverse engineering. These days it's often cheaper to keep physical electronics simple and do most of the work in software and/or a programmable gate array, in which case the software often provides a lot of information for debugging and future expansion. Generally the more intelligent the device, the more likely it is to blab. I have some experience probing Ethernet connected devices but not USB – life is too short and I'm a slow learner!

Dave
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