Connecting a pair of motor controllers.

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Connecting a pair of motor controllers.

Home Forums Electronics in the Workshop Connecting a pair of motor controllers.

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  • #412331
    Ron Laden
    Participant
      @ronladen17547

      I,m not too bad with electrics but a bit dull when it comes to electronics and would appreciate some advice….is it possible to connect and operate an identical pair of DC motor controllers from one speed potentiometer..?

      The controllers come wired with a potentiometer which has 5 cables,  if I wire the two sets of 5 cables to one pot will it work..?

      Also the controllers are wired with 3 cables to a double throw reversing switch, again could they both be connected to a single switch..?

      I wondered if it would cause problems between the two controllers or not work at all or even cause damage to the controllers.

      Thanks

      Ron

       

      Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:07:19

      Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:16:15

      Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:17:57

      Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:24:07

      Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:24:49

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      #32025
      Ron Laden
      Participant
        @ronladen17547
        #412332
        Stuart Bridger
        Participant
          @stuartbridger82290

          I'm no motor control expert, but electronic basics would indicate that the two circuits would need to be kept isolated. This is easy though, you just need a Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) switch and a dual gang potentiometer. The latter being two pots on a common shaft. Both cheap and easy to source.

          #412334
          Ron Laden
          Participant
            @ronladen17547

            Thanks Stuart, that makes sense.

            Ron

            #412336
            Stuart Smith 5
            Participant
              @stuartsmith5

              Ron

              Does the potentiometer have a switch? If it has 5 wires it could have 3 for the potentiometer and 2 for a switch.

              Another Stuart

              #412338
              Ron Laden
              Participant
                @ronladen17547
                Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 03/06/2019 08:50:58:

                Ron

                Does the potentiometer have a switch? If it has 5 wires it could have 3 for the potentiometer and 2 for a switch.

                Another Stuart

                Hi Stuart, yes the original pot has a switch so as you suggest the 2 wires must be the switch. I assume you can get dual gang pots which are switched..?

                Ron

                #412339
                Brian Oldford
                Participant
                  @brianoldford70365
                  Posted by Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:58:26:

                  Hi Stuart, yes the original pot has a switch so as you suggest the 2 wires must be the switch. I assume you can get dual gang pots which are switched..?

                  Ron

                  If you need seperate switches and can only find a pot with a single switch you could slave a two pole relay off the switch.

                  #412340
                  Brian G
                  Participant
                    @briang

                    If the DPDT switch is used on the output to reverse the motors, to keep the outputs isolated you would need a 4-pole double throw switch on the outputs. Alternatively, if you don't need centre off, you could do the same thing to the output as Brian suggested for the potentiometer switch and use a single pole switch (or one pole of the existing switch) to control a pair of DPDT relays.

                    Brian (another one)

                    #412341
                    Ron Laden
                    Participant
                      @ronladen17547
                      Posted by Brian Oldford on 03/06/2019 09:09:26:

                      Posted by Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 08:58:26:

                      Hi Stuart, yes the original pot has a switch so as you suggest the 2 wires must be the switch. I assume you can get dual gang pots which are switched..?

                      Ron

                      If you need seperate switches and can only find a pot with a single switch you could slave a two pole relay off the switch.

                      Thanks Brian,

                      I will have a search, I would need a 100K dual gang pot with a single switch (switches both pots) will see what I can find.

                      Ron

                      #412342
                      Ron Laden
                      Participant
                        @ronladen17547
                        Posted by Brian G on 03/06/2019 09:29:00:

                        If the DPDT switch is used on the output to reverse the motors, to keep the outputs isolated you would need a 4-pole double throw switch on the outputs. Alternatively, if you don't need centre off, you could do the same thing to the output as Brian suggested for the potentiometer switch and use a single pole switch (or one pole of the existing switch) to control a pair of DPDT relays.

                        Brian (another one)

                        Thanks Brian.

                        The reversing switch is not on the outputs, its wired into the controller circuitry.

                        Ron

                        Edited By Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 09:35:23

                        #412430
                        Ron Laden
                        Participant
                          @ronladen17547

                          I just wonder how matched the two sides of a dual gang potentiometer are, percentage wise would they be within 5% of each other when connected to the controllers or better/worse..? I am assuming that two identical controllers would be quite close output wise but if the dual pot adjusting them is well out of balance that could be an issue.

                          I can live with a motor speed difference from the two controllers of around 5% possibly a bit more but not too much more.

                          #412433
                          Robert Atkinson 2
                          Participant
                            @robertatkinson2

                            Can you provide details of the controller model?
                            The more advanced conntrollers actually use a 0-5V (or similar) control voltage which is generated by a potentiometer a 5V supply. If thi is the case you could use a single pot with 3 connections (common, 5V and variable) to one controller and two (common and variable) to the other. If they are cheap ones using a RC circuit then you will need a dual potentiometer. Make sure that it is linear NOT log or "audio" taper. The matching between sections would normally be better than 5%.

                            https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/potentiometers/1638384/

                            Rober G8RPI

                            #412436
                            Dalboy
                            Participant
                              @dalboy

                              Looking at this from a different point of view will both motors always be running the same rotation if so will one of the controller and potentiometer be able to run both motors. So two motors and only one controller and potentiometer.

                              I use to wire two motors to one controller in model boats when only had a two channel set

                              #412454
                              Brian Oldford
                              Participant
                                @brianoldford70365
                                Posted by Ron Laden on 03/06/2019 18:48:44:

                                I just wonder how matched the two sides of a dual gang potentiometer are, percentage wise would they be within 5% of each other when connected to the controllers or better/worse..? I am assuming that two identical controllers would be quite close output wise but if the dual pot adjusting them is well out of balance that could be an issue.

                                I can live with a motor speed difference from the two controllers of around 5% possibly a bit more but not too much more.

                                If you need better "balance" you might consider using a couple of PWM ports on an Arduino. With care I would think you should be able to get sub 1% balance.and a whole heap more functionality should you need it.

                                #412494
                                Ron Laden
                                Participant
                                  @ronladen17547

                                  The idea of using 2 controllers is for the 5 inch class 22 loco I am designing/building. Its a twin bogie loco and I am using 2 x 24 volt/150 watt motors on each bogie, 4 motors in total. The controllers I am considering are the budget (Chinese) type, they are PWM ctrls rated at 10-55 volt, 40 amp continuous, 60 amp max. I am running one of these ctrls in the 0-4-0 shunter and to date it works very well, 10-15 amp in general running with 28 amp max when working hard.

                                  I am estimating that the class 22 would be in the 20-30 amp region with 45-50 amp max or thereabouts. If the budget controller is as rated (I dont know) then a single ctrl should do the job but it would be near its top end. I thought a pair, one driving each bogie would halve the load and make things easier on the controllers and that is where my thinking came from. I could pay over £200 for a ctrl which would cope easily plus have some loco bells and whistles but if a pair of budget type will do the job at 1/10th the cost then that is an attractive option.

                                  Brian, as I mentioned my electronics understanding is not too good so can you explain an Arduino, I have no idea what that is.

                                  Ron

                                  Edited By Ron Laden on 04/06/2019 08:02:16

                                  #412515
                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                  Moderator
                                    @sillyoldduffer

                                    It might be possible to connect the two together electrically, but as we don't know the controller circuitry doing so is downright risky. I'm with Stuart. Get a dual potentiometer and a DPDT switch. Linking the controls mechanically eliminates any chance of getting into electrical poo, and it's a simple and cheap solution.

                                    I doubt 5% difference on the pots would make much difference to the motors, and it's likely the pots will track closer than 5% anyway. If it's a problem you can buy high-tolerance components but I wouldn't bother unless you hit trouble with ordinary potentiometers like these. Amazon also do DPDT switches. Many, many other suppliers, switched double pots and DPDT are both common as muck electronic parts, and you don't need anything special to work a controller.

                                    Dave

                                    #412516
                                    Journeyman
                                    Participant
                                      @journeyman

                                      I'd go for a bigger controller this is rated at 60A continuous from Amazon.co.uk

                                      controller.jpg

                                      Only £25.00 – Might do the job?

                                      John

                                      Edit: forgot the price!

                                      Edited By Journeyman on 04/06/2019 10:26:53

                                      #412520
                                      Brian Oldford
                                      Participant
                                        @brianoldford70365

                                        Now I've looked at those budget controllers I concur with SOD. Without getting them on the bench and having a poke around at the circuitry to find out exactly how the pots are connected into the gubbins it might be better to stick to two pots on a common shaft.

                                        As these controllers are PWM devices I'm sure it could be done in the way I suggested with an Arduino but it would take a little R&D to avoid letting out any of the blue smoke.

                                        #412523
                                        AdrianR
                                        Participant
                                          @adrianr18614

                                          If the controllers are driving separate motors which are effectively mechanically connected via the rails does it matter much if there is a small miss match. It just means one motor will work slightly harder than the other till it reaches full speed.

                                          Dual gang potentiometers are the way to go, if you want to use separate controllers.

                                          If you ever need more controllers you can also get modular potentiometers which can have about 8 on one shaft.

                                          Adrian

                                          #412537
                                          Robert Atkinson 2
                                          Participant
                                            @robertatkinson2

                                            Another option, depending on your batteries would be to use 48V and run the motors in series/parallel on one controller. Series the two motors sharing an axle and parallel the two bogies. If you series the bogies then one slipping would "take" all the voltage and you will loose power at the other bogie.

                                            Otherwise I concur, a dual pot is the way to go. If I had a controller to hand I'm sure a simpler control could be worked out, but I don't.

                                            To keep it mechanical you could of course make a throttle lever and gear (ot miniature toothed belt, crank etc) to the two control pots…..

                                            Robert G8RPI.

                                            #412547
                                            Ron Laden
                                            Participant
                                              @ronladen17547

                                              Thanks guys, I agree that the simplest option is a dual gang pot and providing any output difference from the two controllers is reasonably small I cant see there been any problems. I have been searching and found a lot of 100K dual pots but I still havnt found a 100K linear "switched" dual which is what I will need.

                                              Brian, a picture below of the controller should you be interested, it means nothing to me but you no doubt understand it.

                                              dsc06720.jpg

                                              #412561
                                              John Shepherd
                                              Participant
                                                @johnshepherd38883

                                                Ron

                                                Have you considered using two single pots and connecting the shafts with gears so that one is connected to the control knob and the other is a slave?

                                                The advantages are:

                                                1. you can make mechanical adjustments to reduce the difference (if any) in the two pots.
                                                2. two single linear pots will be easier to source
                                                3. there are plenty of cheap plastic gears around that will do the job.

                                                John

                                                #412572
                                                John Shepherd
                                                Participant
                                                  @johnshepherd38883

                                                  Ron

                                                  Have you considered using two single pots and connecting the shafts with gears so that one is connected to the control knob and the other is a slave?

                                                  The advantages are:

                                                  1. you can make mechanical adjustments to reduce the difference (if any) in the two pots.
                                                  2. two single linear pots will be easier to source
                                                  3. there are plenty of cheap plastic gears around that will do the job.

                                                  John

                                                  #412574
                                                  Neil Wyatt
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @neilwyatt

                                                    I would advise a single controller.

                                                    In my experience potentiometers can be mismatched at the very bottom of their travel so it's quite likely that one motor will power up before the other.

                                                    One motor powered and one stopped is more likely to promote slipping than in two motors already turning. And this right at the times when you need the best control over adhesion.

                                                    Using one high-power controller will ensure both motors can balance (if one slips it will generate more back-emf diverting power to the other motor, and if one motor stalls it will 'steal' power from the other – an ideal situation).

                                                    Neil

                                                    #412702
                                                    AdrianR
                                                    Participant
                                                      @adrianr18614

                                                      Ron

                                                      Here is a link to 100K linear pots

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