lead acid battery charging, will this work

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lead acid battery charging, will this work

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  • #31973
    duncan webster 1
    Participant
      @duncanwebster1
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      #369836
      duncan webster 1
      Participant
        @duncanwebster1

        Members of out ME club seem to think that batteries charge themselves if they just take off the flat one and put it in the shed. We've actually bought a clever charger but very few will take responsibility to take them home (no mains power at track).

        Most cars have a power outlet in the boot nowadays. If I make up a plug and 2 croc clips can we use this to charge batteries, perhaps with a low resistance in series to limit initial charging current (brake light bulb?). Not sure what happens when you try to start the car, does it try to draw off the little battery as well?

        #369843
        martin perman 1
        Participant
          @martinperman1

          Are you thinking of charging from the car battery or running the engine of the car to charge the battery(s). When I towed caravans you could buy a splitter which would block the second battery charge until the cars battery was fully charged, I would also fit an ignition controlled relay in the circuit to stop the car battery being drained when the ignition is off, you may have to look at what the fuse rating is for your accessory socket as the wiring may not be man enough to charge a battery.

          Martin P

          #369845
          john fletcher 1
          Participant
            @johnfletcher1

            Am I to understand that it is your intension to charge the club battery from your car whilst the car is stationary, with the engine switched off. I think you may soon have two partially flat batteries. Modern car batteries are not designed to discharge slowly, they give a lot of energy to the starter motor for a short time, then the alternator takes over. I think your club battery will be a leisure type which gives a smallish amount of energy for a long time, almost the opposite to the car battery. If you want to charge the club battery from your car whilst on the move with the engine running, then you will need a split charge relay as used to be fitted to motor homes. No doubt motor home have an intelligent type charging system now days, with flashing LEDs, many surface mounted chips and plenty to go wrong. Having looked under the bonnet of a few modern car I couldn't even guess which wires are which, so many wires and nothing identified. Also, I do know some cars need to their ECU reprogrammed if a tow bar is fitted, as they are using more current than expected, so be cautious. John

            #369849
            Alan Vos
            Participant
              @alanvos39612

              Canal boats have long been using small wind turbines to charge batteries. Any options there?

              #369851
              Clive Brown 1
              Participant
                @clivebrown1

                Solar panels are fairly cheap these days. A reasonably sized one on the shed roof, possibly with a charge regulator, would recharge through the working week, ready for the week-end.

                #369883
                Neil Wyatt
                Moderator
                  @neilwyatt

                  The three (rather basic) motor homes I've had have used nothing more sophisticated than a relay that switches the leisure battery into parallel with the starting battery when the alternator is generating. The use of relatively narrow gauge wire seems to be used to prevent problems!

                  YMMV…

                  Neil

                  #369887
                  I.M. OUTAHERE
                  Participant
                    @i-m-outahere

                    I would make up a roster so every member has a go at charging the batteries !

                    The charging controller from a dual battery system used on a 4wd sense the alternator output and main battery voltage so it will only charge the auxiliary battery when the engine is running and the main battery is fully charged ( alternatirs never fully charge a battery as thier output is typically 13.7v not the 14.4 v needed to fully charge a lead acid battery .)

                    The controller will also limit the current in two ways :

                    It ramps the current up slowly as deep cycle batteries don't like a lot of current to start with and they limit the total current as the construction of a deep cycle battery is not designed to deliver or recieve a large current like a starter battery can .

                    Please also be aware that when charging a lead acid battery it will give off hydrogen gas so if it is locked in a boot of a car that sealed compartment can become a bomb – open the boot and the little switch for the boot light makes contact , gives off a spark and boom !

                    You can buy what is called a dc to dc charger that connects to your car battery and boost the voltage up so it will charge another battery but they are not cheap and you could set up a solar cherging system for less money .

                    The light globe idea will work but you really want to hook it up to the car so it will only connect the battery when the engine is running , maybe a relay activated from the ignition circuit ?

                    I'm guessing that the batteries are for power at the clubhouse ? Maybe time to purchase a generator ?

                    #369888
                    oldvelo
                    Participant
                      @oldvelo

                      Hi Duncan

                      Not an uncommon problem with groups of people nominate some one else then you do not need to make an effort.

                      Clive Browns idea is sound

                      "Solar panels are fairly cheap these days. A reasonably sized one on the shed roof, possibly with a charge regulator, would recharge through the working week, ready for the week-end."

                      What do you use the batteries for and what size is the Amp Hour Rating.

                      Eric

                      #369891
                      colin wilkinson
                      Participant
                        @colinwilkinson75381

                        Dual Split Charge Towbar Relay

                        All the info you need. Split chargers are fine for charging as you drive, automatically switches off so no current drawn when you start the car. You will only need a canbus system if you take the voltage from the supply at the rear lights afaik. Fitted one to a van conversion with no problems. Colin

                        #369896
                        Nicholas Farr
                        Participant
                          @nicholasfarr14254

                          Hi, why not just get a small generator like this **LINK** that would then save an argument as to who's turn it is to use their car.

                          Regards Nick.

                          #369900
                          Ron Laden
                          Participant
                            @ronladen17547
                            Posted by Nicholas Farr on 01/09/2018 08:00:59:

                            Hi, why not just get a small generator like this **LINK** that would then save an argument as to who's turn it is to use their car.

                            Regards Nick.

                            Duncan, assuming your club can afford £120, surely the little generator in Nick,s link is the way to go. It has a 12 volt charging facility built in and gets excellent reviews, plus it gives you a 240 volt supply of course.

                            Just my thoughts.

                            Ron

                            #369901
                            Bazyle
                            Participant
                              @bazyle

                              It sounds like it is the electric loco battery so would be in use on the track and not available for charging during the session. Also the noise of a generator would put off visitors. An inverter generator might be quieter. Some batteries come with a small tube specifically to vent off gasses but not a real problem as cars are not pressure tight. My RR being ex police had a mounting for an extra battery in the back just connected to the main one.
                              I also vote for solar. Our cricket club tractor battery (as I haven't mended the dynamo) is kept alive by a tiny panel smaller than a laptop which is enough for the once a week start up of the fergie.

                              #369908
                              martin perman 1
                              Participant
                                @martinperman1
                                Posted by Ron Laden on 01/09/2018 08:52:53:

                                Posted by Nicholas Farr on 01/09/2018 08:00:59:

                                Hi, why not just get a small generator like this **LINK** that would then save an argument as to who's turn it is to use their car.

                                Regards Nick.

                                Duncan, assuming your club can afford £120, surely the little generator in Nick,s link is the way to go. It has a 12 volt charging facility built in and gets excellent reviews, plus it gives you a 240 volt supply of course.

                                Just my thoughts.

                                Ron

                                I had one of those generators for several years, yes it does have a battery charging output but its limited by the size of the battery and will trip out if the charging load is to high so I overcome this by using a battery charger connected to the 240v supply.

                                Martin
                                P

                                #369915
                                duncan webster 1
                                Participant
                                  @duncanwebster1

                                  Thanks for all the replies.

                                  The batteries in question are for powering the signals mainly, only 20 Ah, so only need about 2A to charge them
                                  We've got a 5kW diesel generator which s reasonably quiet as it's in a soundproofed enclosure, but people are reluctant to have it running continuously, it would take about 10 hours to charge a battery at the recommended 1/10 of capacity
                                  From bitter experience having a roster will not work. I've been asked in the past who'se responsibility is it to charge batteries, my response of everyone's had no effect whatever.
                                  The long term plan is to have either a solar panel or a windmill, we've got a panel for the remote signals which works brilliantly, but it's a long hike up to the far end of the track. This was meant to be a quick fix

                                  I've checked and the power outlet in my car is only energised when the ignition is on, but as someone pointed out would draw current from a little battery when the starter motor was running. Putting a diode in would stop the little battery getting fully charged.

                                  Looks like I will have to advance the solar panel idea, I can't expect everyone to fit a clever system to their cars

                                  Thanks again for your replies

                                  #369921
                                  Ron Laden
                                  Participant
                                    @ronladen17547
                                    Posted by duncan webster on 01/09/2018 10:56:26:

                                     

                                    From bitter experience having a roster will not work. I've been asked in the past who'se responsibility is it to charge batteries, my response of everyone's had no effect whatever.

                                    Nowt so funny as folk eh Duncan, it is hardly a big deal is it. I dont know how may club members you have but if just a dozen took a turn it is only once every 3 months for each member, but I,m sure you realise that.

                                    Edited By Ron Laden on 01/09/2018 11:50:42

                                    #369935
                                    Paul Lousick
                                    Participant
                                      @paullousick59116

                                      A solar panel with battery charging regulator seems a good option if you only need to charge at 2A over 10 hours. They are reasonably priced and the regulator will control overcharging and keep the battery charged.

                                      Paul.

                                      **LINK**

                                      #369946
                                      Speedy Builder5
                                      Participant
                                        @speedybuilder5

                                        Bigger battery, solar panel is way to go. Solar would charge up during the week and leave plenty for the weekend. I have a small solar setup for a remote garage and use LED lighting for when it's dark.

                                        #505269
                                        Cornish Jack
                                        Participant
                                          @cornishjack

                                          Sort of on-topic – I have a non-working cordless angle-grinder which failed to switch on after 2 use cycles. The battery is fully charged, and, therefore, the assumption is that the battery protection circuit has failed.The charger works fine and the motor and output drive are undamaged and almost new. I cannot obtain a replacement protection module and don't wish to throw away an otherwise useful tool. Question – Would interposing a generic battery monitoring device between the battery and motor be sufficient protection to enable continued use or are there other problems to be considered? The item being considered is available widely at moderate (£12-15) cost. Battery working voltage is 20v

                                          I don't have the technical knowledge or skill to manufacture anything suitable, but could, probably, manage the soldering involved.

                                          rgds

                                          Bill

                                          #505293
                                          Robert Atkinson 2
                                          Participant
                                            @robertatkinson2

                                            Very late to this but to ANSWER the original question

                                            No, that will not work.

                                            You cannot properly charge one battery from another of the same voltage. As John F 1 has suggested you will at best end up with two partially charged batteries. Unless one battery is very discharged there will not be enough voltage difference between it and the car battery for any currrent to flow and charging to take place. If you ran the car engine then sme charging wuld happen but it's a vary expensive and poluting way of doing it. Solar panels look like the best solution.

                                            Robert G8RPI.

                                            #505310
                                            Robert Atkinson 2
                                            Participant
                                              @robertatkinson2
                                              Posted by Cornish Jack on 04/11/2020 11:48:35:

                                              Sort of on-topic – I have a non-working cordless angle-grinder which failed to switch on after 2 use cycles. The battery is fully charged, and, therefore, the assumption is that the battery protection circuit has failed.The charger works fine and the motor and output drive are undamaged and almost new. I cannot obtain a replacement protection module and don't wish to throw away an otherwise useful tool. Question – Would interposing a generic battery monitoring device between the battery and motor be sufficient protection to enable continued use or are there other problems to be considered? The item being considered is available widely at moderate (£12-15) cost. Battery working voltage is 20v

                                              I don't have the technical knowledge or skill to manufacture anything suitable, but could, probably, manage the soldering involved.

                                              rgds

                                              Bill

                                              Information on the grinder make and model would help. "Battery protection circuit" is a bit vague. Normally any protection is built into the removable battery. Doe the grinder have a removable battery or is it built in?

                                              Robert G8RPI.

                                              #505319
                                              John Haine
                                              Participant
                                                @johnhaine32865

                                                We have an electric fence on our allotment, it has what I think is a 7 AH sealed battery supplying it with 12 V. It is charged from a small solar panel via a Schottky diode to prevent the battery discharging through the panel at night. The fence unit is continuously connected so always drawing current. The panel (about 300 x 200 mm) keeps the battery topped up and has done for well over a year without attention. You might need to have some kind of charger circuit for intermittent usage.

                                                #505322
                                                duncan webster 1
                                                Participant
                                                  @duncanwebster1
                                                  Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/11/2020 14:15:49:

                                                  Very late to this but to ANSWER the original question

                                                  No, that will not work.

                                                  You cannot properly charge one battery from another of the same voltage. As John F 1 has suggested you will at best end up with two partially charged batteries. Unless one battery is very discharged there will not be enough voltage difference between it and the car battery for any currrent to flow and charging to take place. If you ran the car engine then sme charging wuld happen but it's a vary expensive and poluting way of doing it. Solar panels look like the best solution.

                                                  Robert G8RPI.

                                                  It's all a bit irrelevant now as we invested in another solar panel, which gave all sorts of other problems now hopefully solved, but the original idea was to connect the extra battery to the outlet in the boot and leave it connected whilst driving around during the week, not to attempt to do when engine not running.

                                                  In brief the solar anel issue is that it charges the battery so well that it is outputting over 14v. The chip didn't like it, it was OK on 12, but 14.4 was too much for the little things.

                                                  #505332
                                                  Peter Cook 6
                                                  Participant
                                                    @petercook6
                                                    Posted by Cornish Jack on 04/11/2020 11:48:35:

                                                    Sort of on-topic – I have a non-working cordless angle-grinder which failed to switch on after 2 use cycles. The battery is fully charged, and, therefore, the assumption is that the battery protection circuit has failed.The charger works fine and the motor and output drive are undamaged and almost new. I cannot obtain a replacement protection module and don't wish to throw away an otherwise useful tool. Question – Would interposing a generic battery monitoring device between the battery and motor be sufficient protection to enable continued use or are there other problems to be considered? The item being considered is available widely at moderate (£12-15) cost. Battery working voltage is 20v

                                                    I don't have the technical knowledge or skill to manufacture anything suitable, but could, probably, manage the soldering involved.

                                                    rgds

                                                    Bill

                                                    Assuming the battery is a Li-Ion You probably need something like this.

                                                    18650 Charger Protection Module 5S 10A Li-ion Lithium Battery BMS 18.5V 21V Cell | eBay

                                                    They are specific to the number of cells. 20V suggest a 5 cell battery.

                                                    You will need to get inside to connect the individual cells to the control module. If you can get inside you might find the module is a generic one like this. They are usually installed in the battery rather than the device to allow them to function in a charger.

                                                    #505334
                                                    Steviegtr
                                                    Participant
                                                      @steviegtr

                                                      E bay

                                                      This is what we use when doing camper conversions to charge the leisure battery.

                                                      Split charger

                                                      Steve.

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